The dark side

bespangeled

Scooby
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Black Thorn
Who has one? How does that dark side manifest? Are they shown consciously fighting their dark side - giving into it - at peace and in balance - or all three? How important is their dark side - if it were removed would they still be able to fight the good fight (ala Kirk in TOS)

It's quite a crew we have, actually:
Giles - murdered Ben, and was responsible for the deaths of others via Eyeghon
Xander - responsible for those who were killed by Sweet, as well as a few other deaths
Willow - flayed Warren, tried to kill Dawn and Buffy and tried to destroy the world
Buffy - tried to murder Faith to save her boyfriend
Faith - committed more than one murder, by choice
Spike -killed the lady who ran the magic shop, a man in the school, and probably more before he was chipped
Angel - killed Jenny Calendar, one of Buffy's friends, and some poor toddler, as well as more unmentioned
Anya - killed more than the Fanged Four combined before her amulet was smashed.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
Love the 1ues5ion
I think Giles' dark side is probably the most interesting, as there was no real reason for it, except him being a teenagers and rebelling.

Xander was just stupid really, doing things because he didn't bother to research the consequences, he never learnt from previous mistakes.

Willow, I'm not sure if I would class it as a dark side more a moment of madness for her

Faith, I believe had been pushed over the edge by various things that had happened in her life, she was vulnerable and an easy target for the mayor to prey on.

Spike doesn't really count to me, at least not presoul.

Angel, with soul does have a dark side too, killing all the lawyers, I think he tries to contain his dark side but can't always when certain buttons are pushed

Anya is very complicated to me, I don't see it as much as a dark side, more 2 people sharing one body, the demon that did all the killing and the girl that was human, and those 2 overlap a little, almost like they are siblings and the human is in a way proud of teh older demon sibling. (not sure if I'm explaining it well, too early in the morning)
 
Dark side is not about only the body counts.
IMO, from the list of characters you've named only 3 of them have the actual dark side - Willow, Angel and Faith.
Willow is addicted to magic and still is very eager to use it and she is scared about that fact. Because she enjoyed it - the power, the thrill of feeling like she can do anything. That's what I call a manifestation of a dark side. She was drown in it and very afraid to slip again.
Angel has a demon inside of him which is pretty much a physical presence of dark in him - he can't get rid of it or just gain full control over it - it will always be on the surface of his personality. It's a bloodsucking demon who wants to eat all of his friend for breakfast every minute. I am not saying that soul part of him which is known as Angel wants it but demon will always want it - it's in his nature. It's not good, it's not bad - that just the way demon operates.
Faith tasted human blood - not literally but still. And she wants it, she likes it. She doesn't feel sorry for torturing Wesley in Five by Five - she can say the word "sorry" but as Angel suggests she really doesn't mean it - at that point at least. That's her dark side - to know that you enjoy torture and kill people.

As for the others you listed I don't consider it like a dark side - just bad choices or mistakes. Except for the Spike of course, as I pronounced in another thread dedicated to his demon.😉 I really don't get the fact that he doesn't struggle because from my POV he has the most reasons to do so than any of the 3 I mentioned above: 1) his previous experience of artificially supressed nature of a demon; 2) the fact that William is considered as a very gentle creature should make him very guilty about the deeds of his demon part. Just my opinion, of course.

Anya is a special case - in her human state she doesn't proclamate the desire of killing all man around her - after all she managed to fall in love and almost married one of them.🙂 But I don't see a struggle - more like a nostalgia for the past and funny days. But she found a solution for her anger and became a demon again. So I can't say that she has a dark side in her human form - just an echoes from her demon days. I can say that she is very unreliable human-demon person who can grab something murderous (become a demon) if you piss her off just enough to do it. Like a hot-tempered person and accidental knife. It's like a trigger to her. And of course it's a stupid thing to break up with a vengeance demon on her wedding day!

As for Giles, Xander, Buffy and I also want to add Wesley to this list I don't see the dark side in them in the same fashion as in Faith, Angel and Willow.
Giles killed Ben because it was a strategic decision in the time of war. It's not like he is going around and wanting to kill some more Bens just for fun. It was necessary and ugly and he had to do it. As for the Reaper period I think we just don't know enough to speculate about it.
Xander was just sloppy irresponsible person. That's not making it any better but it's not a dark side. Just very awful decision which leaded to several deaths.
Again, with Buffy it was an act of rage towards Faith. After all she is an enemy at this point who is attacking her friends just like the other Big Bads before. I can't consider an act of self-defence as a dark side.
Wesley and his kidnapping of Connor - again, bad decision. It's not like he is spending his life wanting to kidnap some more babies from time to time.

Dark side for me is all about embrasing it - after all humans are capable of bad deeds they may regret after doing them. The difference is the fact of enjoying this stuff - torture, violence, power. That's what I call a dark side. If you killed a person by accident or out of self-defence and regretted it it's not a dark side manifestation. But if you killed somebody for noble or whatever reason and found out that you actually enjoyed it and want some more violence (like Angel), torture (like Faith), abusive magic (like Willow) - yeah, then I'll say welcome to the dark side.🙂
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
I really like your response
Well, I'm not condoning Xander's actions, but I personally don't think that was his dark side coming out or anything. He was just stupid.

Giles definitely has a dark side, with the whole Ripper stuff. But with Ben, I never minded that as much as many do. They wanted to kill Glory and that would have killed him anyway. I can understand feeling better about it with Glory driving, but if you view Ben as innocent (which for the record I don't really) then you're still killing an innocent man by killing her.

Willow started off probably one of the most imbalanced, but since getting magic back she seems to have accepted both sides rather than constantly compartmentalizing.

Buffy and Faith both have darkness in them due to the demonic origin of their power. I think the reason Faith is so hard to beat is because she gave in to that darkness, that killer instinct... and so did Buffy when she stabbed Faith in the gut.

Vampires are human-demon hybrids, so it makes sense that they'd have two sides. I think Angel's personalities were more differentiated than Spikes, but then Spike did some good without a soul, something I can't believe Angelus would ever entertain.

Anya, in my opinion, only had her past dealt with seriously in "Selfless" which is why I was annoyed by the character quite a lot. They regularly had her reminiscing about past slaughter and played it for comedy and I don't find it remotely funny that she murdered countless people. In "Selfless" I think they finally approached it with the seriousness it deserved. But as for conflicting sides, I don't recall anything of the sort with her. No remorse or guilt. That's part of why I'm not as fond of her; despite her having some admittedly very funny lines.
 
Well, I'm not condoning Xander's actions, but I personally don't think that was his dark side coming out or anything. He was just stupid.
Giles definitely has a dark side, with the whole Ripper stuff.
Well, if you give Xander a pass because he still pretty much had a adolescent mentality 'it would be fun' then you kinda have to give Giles a pass too.. I never saw his past as being 'dark' he was a rebellious rock'n'roller playing around with being Jimmy Page.
 
Not giving him a pass, like I said, I don't condone his actions at all.
But as far as having a dark side goes: Giles and his gang seemed pretty well aware that what they were doing was dark and destructive; that's what they were into.
Xander genuinely seemed to think he was summoning a happy, non killing, music demon... he was a massive dumbass and I personally think he should have been chastised for it a hell of a lot more than he actually was, but I don't think it was indicating that Xander had darkness deep within him.
 
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he should have been chastised for it a hell of a lot more than he actually was
wait.. when was he chastised for it? I dont remember that. I dont remember much being said at all.

Giles and his gang seemed pretty well aware that what they were doing was dark and destructive
That's up for debate.

The only ones on this list: Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Faith, Spike, Angel, Anya that I would say had a dark side would be Willow and Faith.
 
Every character has a dark side, even Dawn ( steals stuff, turns Joyce into a zombie ) and Tara ( lies and makes demons invisible in "Family" ) As to the importance of the darkness - simple, it empowers the characters, it's power, freedom and independence rolled into one.
 
I thought that Angelus killed her.

Jenny: He's not Angel anymore. Are you?

Angelus: Wrong. I *am* Angel. (tightens his grip on Willow) At last!

Since Angel does not embrace the name Angelus, I see him as Angel. Either way, he was definitely in dark side mode. 🙂
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
But when did they first mention Angelus? I didnt think it was until he was on his own show. Even in season 2 they just called him Angel did they? I thought they invented the whole Angelus thing when they went further into his backstory.
That's up for debate.
Giles and Ethan were pretty knowledgeable, powerful warlocks. If they were getting high on demonic possession, I have a hard time believing they didn't know that the forces they were summoning were very dark.
Xander on the other hand, was a layman who did something incredibly foolish and naive.

Again, not saying it wasn't wrong, I just don't think that it was an example of Xander's dark side revealing itself when he genuinely seemed to think he was doing something good for everyone (all be it idiotically). If we're looking at dark sides, I'd be more inclined to look to his vindictive love spell or deliberately neglecting to tell Buffy about Angel's impending restoration. Occasions where his intentions were actually malicious.
 
Giles and Ethan were pretty knowledgeable, powerful warlocks. If they were getting high on demonic possession, I have a hard time believing they didn't know that the forces they were summoning were very dark.
"knowledgeable, powerful warlocks" again, that's up for debate.
"hard time believing they didn't know that the forces they were summoning were very dark" they might have known it was dark, just not that they could actually summon it.

It's just like the stories Spike told about killing slayers, when you actually see the moment the situation is wholly different. Both parties involved could be feeling remorse, regret so they may have exaggerated their part in the matter. To the best of my recollection you never actually saw what transpired.
 
I think Giles' dark side is probably the most interesting, as there was no real reason for it, except him being a teenagers and rebelling.

Xander was just stupid really, doing things because he didn't bother to research the consequences, he never learnt from previous mistakes.

Willow, I'm not sure if I would class it as a dark side more a moment of madness for her

Faith, I believe had been pushed over the edge by various things that had happened in her life, she was vulnerable and an easy target for the mayor to prey on.

Spike doesn't really count to me, at least not presoul.

Angel, with soul does have a dark side too, killing all the lawyers, I think he tries to contain his dark side but can't always when certain buttons are pushed

Anya is very complicated to me, I don't see it as much as a dark side, more 2 people sharing one body, the demon that did all the killing and the girl that was human, and those 2 overlap a little, almost like they are siblings and the human is in a way proud of teh older demon sibling. (not sure if I'm explaining it well, too early in the morning)

Oh, yes - one thing I wish we had a chance to see more of is Ripper. I hate to say it but I love the scene of him taking Ethan apart with such cold and clinical detachment.

Xander acted without thought but I'm including him because he certainly knew better - he was in the magic shop. He had seen more than once why you did not mess with magical artifacts. I can't say he could reasonably argue any lack of knowledge. I'd be more likely to say his dark side shows up as passive aggressive hurtful behavior which he can claim he should not be blamed for. We saw this earlier in the hyena episode - however much Xander was actually responsible, his decision not to own and apologize was a key to his character.

Willow's dark side also included an attempt to kill both Buffy and dawn, as well as a lust for power. Even she differentiated herself from her normal self - the loser and addict. Besides, she calls it going dark in that wonderful scene with Wesley.

I agree that Faith was uniquely vulnerable, but she also knew good from bad. She just chose to be bad, to embrace her dark side. There are plenty of people from the same background who embrace the other side and swear they will never be like those who hurt them. To deny Faith's responsibility is to ignore those who don't take that path.

I can see why you didn't chose Spike until he got a soul - no moral compass.

Yes, Angel can go dark, and that's a great example. Setting Dru and Darla on fire is another example - not just the choice but the comment "Who was that?"

Anya bewilders me since she supposedly had a soul while she was massacring humans. And once she was dumped at the altar she chooses to go back to vengeance. Yes, she took back two of her choices, but we know there were others.

I love your post - very well thought out for early in the morning. 😀 
What's Riley's dark side?

Being complicit in torturing demons regardless of if they are evil. It's something Buffy mentioned when she came on board - not all demons are evil - and something that was completely dismissed. And the suck jobs - he put everyone in danger with that. Had he been turned there would have been one helluva danger. 
Well, I'm not condoning Xander's actions, but I personally don't think that was his dark side coming out or anything. He was just stupid.

Giles definitely has a dark side, with the whole Ripper stuff. But with Ben, I never minded that as much as many do. They wanted to kill Glory and that would have killed him anyway. I can understand feeling better about it with Glory driving, but if you view Ben as innocent (which for the record I don't really) then you're still killing an innocent man by killing her.

Willow started off probably one of the most imbalanced, but since getting magic back she seems to have accepted both sides rather than constantly compartmentalizing.

Buffy and Faith both have darkness in them due to the demonic origin of their power. I think the reason Faith is so hard to beat is because she gave in to that darkness, that killer instinct... and so did Buffy when she stabbed Faith in the gut.

Vampires are human-demon hybrids, so it makes sense that they'd have two sides. I think Angel's personalities were more differentiated than Spikes, but then Spike did some good without a soul, something I can't believe Angelus would ever entertain.

Anya, in my opinion, only had her past dealt with seriously in "Selfless" which is why I was annoyed by the character quite a lot. They regularly had her reminiscing about past slaughter and played it for comedy and I don't find it remotely funny that she murdered countless people. In "Selfless" I think they finally approached it with the seriousness it deserved. But as for conflicting sides, I don't recall anything of the sort with her. No remorse or guilt. That's part of why I'm not as fond of her; despite her having some admittedly very funny lines.

Xander knew he was taking a huge risk summoning a demon. If nothing else that was reckless endangerment and depraved indifference which does count as murder. He willfully disregarded possible consequences, although his very life showed what can happen when a demon is summoned.

Yeah, I'm with you on the killing of Ben, but I do need to point out that this is the first character who is killed not for what he did but for what he might do in the future. That's important because it's the same rationale used when Giles conspires to kill Spike. Angel is trusted after he is resoled despite the fact that he committed multiple murders. Spike is not given that same chance.

Willow was taken by her darkness for very understandable reasons, but while under the influence of darkness she flayed Warren (I have no real problems with that, but then she attacked Buffy and Anya and tried to destroy Dawn, Jonathan and Andres.

I completely agree on both Faith and Buffy - they gave into the darkness which they inherited. I also agree on Spike and Angel once Spike had a soul he never gave into the darkness. I'm not sure if the fact that his soul was a gift and Angel's was a curse had anything to do with that.

And I agree on Anya - once they said vengeance demons had souls they upended the entire mythos. Anya had a soul when she killed but never showed remorse. She chose vengeance without any qualms, and stopped only because she was forced to stop when she lost her power center. Even as a human she never seemed to have any regret or remorse about her prior actions.

Good points! 😀
 
Being complicit in torturing demons regardless of if they are evil. It's something Buffy mentioned when she came on board - not all demons are evil - and something that was completely dismissed.
But it wasnt dismissed. He learned it. Thats why he rescued Oz. He was doing and job, believing in what he thought was right, but when he found out it was not everything it was supposed to be he stopped. You cant call that a dark side. If that's a dark side then ALOT of people have a dark side.
 
wait.. when was he chastised for it? I dont remember that. I dont remember much being said at all.


That's up for debate.

The only ones on this list: Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Faith, Spike, Angel, Anya that I would say had a dark side would be Willow and Faith.

Giles took apart Ethan with cool efficiency, he killed Ben because Ben might be a threat, and he gave into Wood and was complicit in the attempted murder of Spike, again because of what he might do. He also stood by while his slayer was kicked out after calling him on it, and embraced the more insecure and easily led Faith.

Xander knew what summoning a demon cold result in but he summoned Sweet. Just like his hyena AR with Buffy he pretended not to know, and was never held accountable.

Buffy tried to kill a human, Spike is proably the least culpable because he had no soul, and I have no idea why you would say that Angel didn't have a dark side. 
But it wasnt dismissed. He learned it. Thats why he rescued Oz. He was doing and job, believing in what he thought was right, but when he found out it was not everything it was supposed to be he stopped. You cant call that a dark side. If that's a dark side then ALOT of people have a dark side.

Did he rescue Oz because he was a friend - I don't think he would have rescued any other demons or werewolves. Then he started going and getting suck jobs despite the danger of being turned, and he blame Buffy for that choice. Darkness there. IMO. Most low level Nazis knew what was going on and did nothing. I see Riley as one of them. He left because of Buffy, not because of any sudden epiphany.
 
attempted murder of Spike
You cant murder a blood sucking fiend as they are already dead.

I guess I just have a different definition of dark side.


"Giles took apart Ethan" I dont know to what you are referring. "he killed Ben because" he needed to save the world.
"He also stood by while his slayer was kicked out after calling him on it, and embraced the more insecure and easily led Faith." that doesnt mean he has a dark side, just common sense

"Xander knew what summoning a demon cold result in" I think half the time Xander doesn't know what day of the week it is lest he look at his underwear.
"he pretended not to know" sometimes pretending is easier for someone like Xander. He didnt really excel at speaking his mind. Again, hardly a dark side.

"Buffy tried to kill a human" If it were a normal human I could agree it was a dark side, but it was only Faith. That doesn't count.

"Spike is proably the least culpable" I did not include him on the list for the same reason I did not Angel. You cant really fault a vamp for being a vamp. I mean.. vampires are SUPPOSED to be evil.
 
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