The Darkness of Angel the Series

[Puppet]

Fans always talk about how Angel (the show) is a darker version of Buffy (the show); what are some examples?

For me, one of the absolutely darkest and most shockingly vile moments are from Rm w/a Vu, when we see how Dennis died in a flashback, especially as the crime is committed, not just by a human, but by his own mother. That one always gets to me.

 

[Antho]

Angel locking the door and let the lawyers being killed. That’s something you will never see Buffy doing.

 

[Nix]

The episode Untouched stands in my mind. Dealing with child abuse, a heavy subject done well in my opinion as far as a vampire show goes.

 

[r2dh2]

For me, Reprise encapsulates the darkness of the show. Angel’s talk with Holland, his “enlightenment” about the nature of humanity (suddenly having the clarity to understand that any of us have the capacity of doing unspeakable evil) and his “surrender” to Darla at the end of the episode. Luckily, it led him to his epiphany, but he was not only willing to give up, he was willing to cross to the other side and become again the instrument of evil. I think that as much as Buffy flirted with her dark side, this is something that she’d never do.

I love both Reprise and Epiphany. I think that Angel’s decisions resemble a lot of what we see in the world, if we can beat evil, let’s join it. Some people remain lost and go even deeper, some others realize that it was the wrong choice, regardless of the despair that took them there.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I thought The Ring really encompassed the darkness of the series.

 

[Bop]

I think the fact that the show killed off so many main characters felt very dark to me compared to Buffy.

 

[Btvs fan]

5by5 had a certified 18 for it. No Buffy episode had that

 

[Antho]

5by5 had a certified 18 for it. No Buffy episode had that

But there are plenty episodes of Buffy which deserved to have that certification ( hush, dead things, seeing red...). I don’t see what Five by five has to more terrifying than the others episodes. In five by five a lot of things are just suggerates, we don’t see the full picture, while we do see more things in Dead things or seeing red ^^

 

[katmobile]

But there are plenty episodes of Buffy which deserved to have that certification ( hush, dead things, seeing red...). I don’t see what Five by five has to more terrifying than the others episodes. In five by five a lot of things are just suggerates, we don’t see the full picture, while we do see more things in Dead things or seeing red ^^

Billy's darker than all of those I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

[thetopher]

The main baddies are just corrupt humans. Angel can't just 'slay' them (at least not until S5) he has to foil schemes and resist darker temptations. It skews the whole show more morally grey from the outset.

 

[spikenbuffy]

The Fang Gang being so desperate that they needed to get Angelus back to have answers about another big bad.
The Have You Now Or Ever Been episode.
Illyria infecting the body of a main character & destroying the soul in a day, it was a torture to watch & truly horrifying.

 

[TriBel]

Angel's a noir detective. The title screen couldn't be any more explicit if it spelled Spade and Marlowe out in flashing neon lights. He fulfills some of Chandler's requirements of the Private Eye (can also be read as private I). "Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. The detective in this kind of story must be such a man. He is the hero, he is everything. He must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man". Chandler's code is anachronistic - it's that of the knight.

Hammett's Spade also abides by a code: “When a man's partner is killed he's supposed to do something about it. It doesn't make any difference what you thought of him. He was your partner and you're supposed to do something about it. Then it happens we were in the detective business. Well, when one of your organization gets killed it's bad business to let the killer get away with it. It's bad all around-bad for that one organization, bad for every detective everywhere". Spade's code is kinda less personal...it's that of capitalism, commerce and business.

In both cases, codes give meaning in a meaningless world. They protect the detective from an anarchic world where almost everything is corrupt - from the individual to institutions (the Law, the Police...blah...blah...blah....down to the family). In BtVS, these institutions are problematic, sometimes comedic but there's still an element of hope (until S12). For me, this is the biggest difference. AtS underscores the fact that Oedipus (trying to find out something about himself) was the first detective.

Occasionally he's Mike Hammer. I can't remember if Hammer has a code - to all intents and purposes, he's just a selfish dick.

especially as the crime is committed, not just by a human, but by his own mother. That one always gets to me.

I rest my case about families. 😏

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

"DARKNESS, NO PARENTS!"

I mean, what is dark? I rereading Lord of the Rings Appendices, and came across Celebrían. It's by far the darkest tale of the Third Age, if not the entire legendarium, but the unpleasant aspects of the story are passed over in one sentence. Angel wearing a muscle shirt while punching a bag in his basement while monologuing about how dark he is, that got tiresome. It definitely crossed into Blake's 7 Territory with the unneeded character deaths. I think they did make a bona fide effort to cover darker stories. Heck, "Corruption" was the canceled second episode, the substitute was cute twentysomethings being hollowed out by a demon and used as meat puppet as a metaphor for casual sex and loneliness. That's pretty dark. It also had an episode where Angel had to fight a Knight in a joust. I think they went a little overboard in season 2, but yes, it was darker, and not just Frank Miller's Metalocalypse style darkness.

I think of the moments that haven't been talked about, getting Lorne to kill Lindsay and then accepting he would quit the team strikes me as Angel's darkest moment.

I don't why it has to be dark. Angel is on a quest to walk into the sunrise holding the hand of his beloved, whereas Buffy is on a meaningless war against the Dark Forces of the Night, one which will end in her death, unless its the season where she remembers she is trying to be an ordinary girl.

 

[darkspook]

I think a dark moment was seeing Angel with a soul hook up again with Darla, Spike and Dru in flashbacks. He was at his lowest point and decided he couldn’t live without them.

 

[Puppet]

Another one, and one I've seen be so shocking for people who react to it for the first time, is Angel in Are You Now or Have You Ever Been, turning his back and telling the demon to 'take them all'. Leaving a hotel full of people - who are technically innocent since they were under the influence of a demon when they hung him - to a demon, knowing what will happen. Yikes!

 

[Antho]

Billy's darker than all of those I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

You are absolutely right. I forgot it. Billy is really dark as an episode. It makes me wonder why there is a certification for five by five and not Billy. And with the evolution of feminism nowadays I’m wondering is this episode would be allowed at the tv ?

 

[r2dh2]

Angel's a noir detective. The title screen couldn't be any more explicit if it spelled Spade and Marlowe out in flashing neon lights. He fulfills some of Chandler's requirements of the Private Eye (can also be read as private I). "Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. The detective in this kind of story must be such a man. He is the hero, he is everything. He must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man". Chandler's code is anachronistic - it's that of the knight.

Hammett's Spade also abides by a code: “When a man's partner is killed he's supposed to do something about it. It doesn't make any difference what you thought of him. He was your partner and you're supposed to do something about it. Then it happens we were in the detective business. Well, when one of your organization gets killed it's bad business to let the killer get away with it. It's bad all around-bad for that one organization, bad for every detective everywhere". Spade's code is kinda less personal...it's that of capitalism, commerce and business.

In both cases, codes give meaning in a meaningless world. They protect the detective from an anarchic world where almost everything is corrupt - from the individual to institutions (the Law, the Police...blah...blah...blah....down to the family). In BtVS, these institutions are problematic, sometimes comedic but there's still an element of hope (until S12). For me, this is the biggest difference. AtS underscores the fact that Oedipus (trying to find out something about himself) was the first detective.

Occasionally he's Mike Hammer. I can't remember if Hammer has a code - to all intents and purposes, he's just a selfish dick.

I rest my case about families. 😏

You explained it perfectly. I was thinking more about it, and I think Epiphany is the key episode for me. In BtVS, they struggle and fall down but at the end, the good prevails. There’s always hope, there’s no surrender…

But in AtS this is different, Epiphany is the moment of clarity of the show: there’s no winning. It doesn’t mean that they will not keep fighting, it only means that they understand that evil will never disappear. They don’t surrender either, but they don’t expect to ever win.

"It doesn't… Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win. […] If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it. […] All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

 

[Antho]

In « First Impression » Angel dreams of Darla and we see at the end that she is really there with him in his bed. That’s super Rapey and well.. dark ^^. And I found that interesting that a show like ATS aborded such a theme like men being raped. Do you think it was really the intention ?

 

[Leo]

That old gang of mine, Gio is despicable.

 

[Dogs of Winter]

You explained it perfectly. I was thinking more about it, and I think Epiphany is the key episode for me. In BtVS, they struggle and fall down but at the end, the good prevails. There’s always hope, there’s no surrender…

But in AtS this is different, Epiphany is the moment of clarity of the show: there’s no winning. It doesn’t mean that they will not keep fighting, it only means that they understand that evil will never disappear. They don’t surrender either, but they don’t expect to ever win.

Exactly this. I think the element of hope is the big difference

In Buffy no matter how bad it gets, it always feels like there is hope that life can improve. Even for Buffy herself right from the start she has hope that despite being the slayer she can go to college, get a job, live a reasonably normal job etc. Even after everything the characters have been through there is still a hopeful end to the show which feels exactly right

But in Angel the characters seem more jaded even though some of them are not much older. It feels like this is what the characters do now and what they will always do. There is less hope of things getting better. They just have to keep on trying to help people and make the most of their situation

There are other things that contribute to the darker tone
Having the main adversary be human gives it an added darkness as how can you defeat an evil that is everywhere around you.
We see the main character do things that could never happen on Buffy.
And there are episodes along the way like Billy and Untouched which deal with themes in a darker way than you would expect on Buffy.

But ultimately I would say it all boils down to the respective levels of hope on the 2 shows