The Dawn Effect and Team Angel

[Cordy_Chase]

A thought occurred to me.
Dawn was artificially placed in everyone's memories so her sudden appearance wouldn't be questioned but how did the monks know who to include and did they consider Cordelia, Wesley and Angel in LA?

It's a smart precaution to take into consideration those no longer in Sunnydale but whom still were significant enough in Buffy's life at some point to potentially come around again. We do see Angel appear in the Dawn era to bring condolences and pay respects when Joyce died. Though there is never a mention of Dawn in his short scene that I can remember.

There might have been a mention in season 4 of ATS somewhere; for some reason I seem to recall Angel possibly mentioning her name when on the phone with someone?
That still leaves Cordelia and Wesley to wonder about though.

 

[Taake]

Well we see Angel talking to Dawn (when he calls to see which Slayer is in town) as if it's not strange at all to him to talk to Dawn (as for Forever I can't remember if they specifically mention Dawn but it feels like he knows about Buffy's responsibilities for her ), so I imagine anyone who was in Buffy's life would have had their memories altered. I.e. the whole AI team mentioned would have been altered to remember Dawn.

Dawn talks to Faith about having nearly been killed by her, that would have been season three when Angel, Cordy and Wes were around, so no doubt they would have been made to remember these incidents. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

I'm positive that the monks took that into consideration. For some reason, when I think about how they created Dawn, I think that they built her life first, like every detail of it. And then whoever was in that life, was imprinted with the memories too. It's the only way that the idea of Dawn could work. Because to really give the sense that Dawn is real, they would have build a real life where Dawn had childhood friends and such. Which is why it makes sense to build the life, and then give whoever is involved the specific memories. And because the monks had to build Dawn around certain constraints (for example, they couldn't erase the ascension without highly altering everyone's memory, which I'm sure would be possible, but also more complicated), they would have needed to include Cordy, Angel, and Wes in the memories.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Well we see Angel talking to Dawn (when he calls to see which Slayer is in town) as if it's not strange at all to him to talk to Dawn (as for Forever I can't remember if they specifically mention Dawn but it feels like he knows about Buffy's responsibilities for her ), so I imagine anyone who was in Buffy's life would have had their memories altered. I.e. the whole AI team mentioned would have been altered to remember Dawn.

Dawn talks to Faith about having nearly been killed by her, that would have been season three when Angel, Cordy and Wes were around, so no doubt they would have been made to remember these incidents. 🙂

First of all I knew there was a phone call, thank you for that.
About Dawn nearly being killed by Faith when was this conversation and when was it referring to in Season 3?

And because the monks had to build Dawn around certain constraints (for example, they couldn't erase the ascension without highly altering everyone's memory, which I'm sure would be possible, but also more complicated), they would have needed to include Cordy, Angel, and Wes in the memories.

This is an excellent thought that they'd have to insert Dawn into memories of points in Buffy's life when Cordy, Angel and Wes were around.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I agree with @Blaze. Because it's not just Buffy and the people in her life that remember Dawn, but Dawn's friends, the people at school and around town. But then that seems like the monks would have had to do a lot of research and finely craft out Dawn's life. I think with Cordy and Wes, they probably never interacted with Dawn or it would have been limited, so there's no real need for them to ever bring her up. I think we're to just assume they know of her existence. But this got me thinking. If the monks made Dawn out of Buffy' blood, when did they get Buffy's blood without her noticing? There's a ton of questions I have about the monks that we don't get answers too.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

I've always been impressed by how thorough a job the monks were able to do in constructing Dawn's life when Glory was bearing down on them in the beginning of "No Place Like Home."

I wish I could be that productive under pressure.

 

[janas]

We do see Angel appear in the Dawn era to bring condolences and pay respects when Joyce died. Though there is never a mention of Dawn in his short scene that I can remember.

Yes, there is a mention of Dawn. In "Forever" Buffy talks about Dawn with Angel.

ANGEL: Buffy...
BUFFY: It would be okay if it was just me I had to worry about. But Dawn...
ANGEL: Look it's okay. I know you don't feel like it right now, but you are strong, Buffy. You're gonna figure this out. And you have people to help you. You don't have to do this alone.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

@Fuffy Baith That's something that had also occurred to me, where had the Monks obtained Summer's blood?
I've never considered before how right you are, that it was a hell of a lot more work to create Dawn's life than just altering the Scoobies. The amount of power that had to take--those Monks must have been exceptionally skilled in their art.

I wonder why it put such a strain on Joyce's brain but no one else's? Particularly Giles' who is around here age right?
That's my theory anyway, how the brain tumor came about. The lapses she had from her altered memory seem to suggest it.

@janas Thanks for the clarification, but sine Angel didn't respond to the mention that particular moment is still up for debate. The phone call seemed to be stronger evidence that he knew who Dawn was.

 

[janas]

@SoulOfAngelus, There is another mention in season five. This time, is Dawn talking about Angel. I don't remember the specific episode, but I remember Dawn talking to Riley of the time when Angel was in Sunnydale.

I think the magic of the monks, was very similar to the magic used to alter the Connor's memories. In the Connor's case, his memories have been removed, contrariwise of Dawn's memories, that instead have been included, but it doesn't change nothing the way it worked the spell. Everyone involved in their world had to forget/remember Connor/Dawn. So yes, definitely also Cordy and Wes knew of the existence of Dawn.

 

[RomanticSoul]

We are talking mind-rape of thousands of people where Dawn's insertion into reality is concerned. Teachers, doctors, neighbors, students etc not just in Sunnydale but LA as well. No big leap to assume the Angel crew that stemmed from Sunnydale would also have their minds altered.

That's something that had also occurred to me, where had the Monks obtained Summer's blood?

Out of Joss Whedon's ass I assume. Don't think too much about that because it makes zero sense. Even if the monks made Dawn out of Buffy it still doesn't make Buffy the key. That's basic biology.

But I'm probably not the best judge when it comes to the casual retconning of the first 4 Seasons on behalf of this useless character. I'm just glad it had no baring on the Angelverse.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

@RomanticSoul Mind rape, indeed a good term and exactly what Cordelia had actually called the Angelverse counterpart concept of Connor being wiped from Team Angel's existence. Though in that case it exempted a few folks including Angel himself but as @janas pointed out it is essentially the same type of magic.

Even if the monks made Dawn out of Buffy it still doesn't make Buffy the key. That's basic biology.

This is a valid point which kind of takes the sense away from Buffy's being able to close the portal (her suicide).

And interesting you should call Dawn a useless character, I agree with that and actually feel the same of Connor (keeping in mind that Jasmine was not intended to happen).

 

[RomanticSoul]

@RomanticSoul Mind rape, indeed a good term and exactly what Cordelia had actually called the Angelverse counterpart concept of Connor being wiped from Team Angel's existence. Though in that case it exempted a few folks including Angel himself but as @janas pointed out it is essentially the same type of magic.

There is no other word for it than mind-rape. Because no one gave their consent. For me Joyce is the worst case in this regard. Because it kills any notion that this show is feminist. The monks foisting Dawn on Joyce without her consent is forced adoption. It's not like they left a baby in a cradle on her doorstep and she could chose what to do, including adopt it. They altered her memory to the point of making her believe Dawn is actually her child. That's not even getting into the added financial stress it would put on the single mother. I didn't see the monks helping out by paying child support.

This is a valid point which kind of takes the sense away from Buffy's being able to close the portal (her suicide).

Nothing in that episode makes sense. Which is why I never got emotional watching The Gift. I was too busy being royally confused by asking How? What? How? The whole Glory/Key stoyline is one giant mess that makes no sense.

And interesting you should call Dawn a useless character, I agree with that and actually feel the same of Connor (keeping in mind that Jasmine was not intended to happen).

Dawn is really just a plot device and not a character in S5/6. In S5 she had 2 functions: 1) Key that needs to be sacrificed and 2) stone around Buffy's neck to make her life harder. She didn't get to do point 1 so by S6 she defaulted to point 2. S7 Dawn doesn't even make a lick of sense based on the previous Seasons. It's like we missed a couple of years in between.

But again I'm probably not the fairest judge considering my massive Dawnverse hate.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

There is no other word for it than mind-rape. Because no one gave their consent. For me Joyce is the worst case in this regard. Because it kills any notion that this show is feminist. The monks foisting Dawn on Joyce without her consent is forced adoption. It's not like they left a baby in a cradle on her doorstep and she could chose what to do, including adopt it. They altered her memory to the point of making her believe Dawn is actually her child. That's not even getting into the added financial stress it would put on the single mother. I didn't see the monks helping out by paying child support.

Very true, they not only raped Joyce's memory (which ultimately killed her) but also forced her to mother a second child when Buffy was difficult enough to deal with. I'm suddenly wondering if the Monks had incorporated Dawn as more than just memories into Joyce looking back at her hospital scene after--or was it before undergoing surgery for the tumor. She'd completely broken out of the altered memory state and come to the realization that Dawn was not her child but she told Buffy that she still felt like she was hers.
It makes sense that to truly make Joyce believe she'd mothered this child there would need to be more than just images in her mind as evidence but emotions as well, that maternal connection.

The whole Glory/Key stoyline is one giant mess that makes no sense.

It was also pretty unnecessary, merely a season filler it seemed but it's possible that whole storyline as well as the nonsense of Buffy being able to close the portal was an excuse to kill her (Buffy) off since as I heard that was originally the series finale but then another network picked it up. It's mind boggling how sloppy the execution was considering how much time they had to develop it. Recall Dawn was foreshadowed at the end of season 3.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Very true, they not only raped Joyce's memory (which ultimately killed her) but also forced her to mother a second child when Buffy was difficult enough to deal with. I'm suddenly wondering if the Monks had incorporated Dawn as more than just memories into Joyce looking back at her hospital scene after--or was it before undergoing surgery for the tumor. She'd completely broken out of the altered memory state and come to the realization that Dawn was not her child but she told Buffy that she still felt like she was hers.
It makes sense that to truly make Joyce believe she'd mothered this child there would need to be more than just images in her mind as evidence but emotions as well, that maternal connection.

I thought it was pretty clear the monks not only altered/changed memories but emotional responses people had to certain events as well. I always believed that Buffy's unwillingness to even consider sacrificing Dawn, willing to kill her friends should they try to kill Dawn and being ok with billions of people being sucked into hell so Dawn can live a few minutes longer was also put in there kind of like a default emotion. Protect Dawn above all else (including billions of lives).

Next time you rewatch the early Seasons try and put Dawn into episodes. Believe me it becomes a totally different show. And that's why I'm totally disconnected from the Dawnverse. Because the characters remember the first 4 years completely different than I do. So much in the first 2 Seasons depends on Buffy having the house to herself with Joyce either working late or being gone for days. So much of the plot deponds on it ( What's My Line P1 becomes a completely different episode). That doesn't work with Dawn in the picture. If that stays the same in the rewritten Dawnverse then Buffy has to take care of Dawn since I doubt Joyce has the money for a babysitter. Which leaves even less time for Buffy to socialize and the Scoobie friendships becomes less tight as a result. Which is also why Dawn took over Willows role in Buffy's life. The disgusting favoritismn Joyce shows for Dawn in S5 is also troublesome for me. A Buffy settled with her difficult slayer responsibilities, babysitter for her sister and being blamed every time Dawn gets into trouble...is it any wonder Buffy snapped once Joyce died and chose suicide by tower jump. Can't say I blame the girl.

It was also pretty unnecessary, merely a season filler it seemed but it's possible that whole storyline as well as the nonsense of Buffy being able to close the portal was an excuse to kill her (Buffy) off since as I heard that was originally the series finale but then another network picked it up. It's mind boggling how sloppy the execution was considering how much time they had to develop it. Recall Dawn was foreshadowed at the end of season 3.

Originally it wasn't planned that way. Though I could remember it wrong. Willow/Xander/Riley were originally supposed to be Key/Ben or something. And I never bought that S3 dream to be a reference to Dawn. The 7-3-0 I bought as hints to Buffy's second death. The 'little Miss Muffet' was just way too convenient to later say 'look how muhc we planned this in advance'.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

The other thing about Dawn, is that the monks aren't re-writing history, the events of seasons 1-4 still played out the same way, it's just adding Dawn into the situations anything that happened to Dawn doesn't really exist until season 5. So you could go back and watch the first 4 seasons trying to add Dawn in, but it doesn't change the outcome of the episode. The Master still drowns Buffy, Angel still loses his soul, Faith still goes bad, Riley and the Initiative are still around, so yea the monks put in a lot of work creating these memories. It'd be like trying to re-write all of the scripts to add in scenes with Dawn but not affect the overall story. Sounds like a challenge for Joss. lol

 

[Cordy_Chase]

I thought it was pretty clear the monks not only altered/changed memories but emotional responses people had to certain events as well. I always believed that Buffy's unwillingness to even consider sacrificing Dawn, willing to kill her friends should they try to kill Dawn and being ok with billions of people being sucked into hell so Dawn can live a few minutes longer was also put in there kind of like a default emotion. Protect Dawn above all else (including billions of lives).

While this is valid, she was also given the mission of protecting Dawn as the key not just as her sister.
The choice to throw herself into the portal was completely sisterly however and was something that erked me because she wanted so badly to save Dawn only to orphan her which she didn't seem to consider at all. With that stack of bills and Willow and Tara jobless they were completely unfit guardians.

Next time you rewatch the early Seasons try and put Dawn into episodes. Believe me it becomes a totally different show. And that's why I'm totally disconnected from the Dawnverse. Because the characters remember the first 4 years completely different than I do. So much in the first 2 Seasons depends on Buffy having the house to herself with Joyce either working late or being gone for days. That doesn't work with Dawn in the picture. If that stays the same in the rewritten Dawnverse then Buffy has to take care of Dawn since I doubt Joyce has the money for a babysitter. Which leaves even less time for Buffy to socialize and the Scoobie friendships becomes less tight as a result. Which is also why Dawn took over Willows role in Buffy's life.

Agreed that Dawn doesn't fit into the seasons previous to her existence the way it was presented. Most certainly she would have set off several butterfly effects that sent Buffy and the Scoobies in a significantly different direction. Most certainly she'd be stuck with babysitting duty often enough to allow less slaying hours which would mean not as many vampires would be caught and her presence in certain large events would have been altered even in the smallest ways. Hypothetically lets look at when she went after Faith to save Angel, what if Dawn had run off and/or come into danger before Buffy had gotten to Faith? That would have taken priority on Buffy's agenda. Angel's outcome probably would have remained but Faith would never have been in a coma and thus a whole new series of events around her would have been created.

Like you said Buffy would have also had less time to socialize so perhaps there wouldn't have been any Scoobies, just her, Giles, Angel and eventually Faith.

The disgusting favoritismn Joyce shows for Dawn in S5 is also troublesome for me.

Yeah this annoyed me greatly. She downright made Buffy out to be a disappointment to her which was so wrong on so many levels.

The other thing about Dawn, is that the monks aren't re-writing history, the events of seasons 1-4 still played out the same way, it's just adding Dawn into the situations anything that happened to Dawn doesn't really exist until season 5. So you could go back and watch the first 4 seasons trying to add Dawn in, but it doesn't change the outcome of the episode.

I beg to differ. Our actions and/or our very presence in an event can be significant in the outcome. Factoring Dawn into the first 4 seasons would have changed a lot of Buffy's slaying and social life as I and @RomanticSoul have pointed out.
Just look at Wishverse. It's debatable that it was a real AU but still a valid possibility of a version of Sunnydale which never received Buffy.

 

[RomanticSoul]

The other thing about Dawn, is that the monks aren't re-writing history, the events of seasons 1-4 still played out the same way, it's just adding Dawn into the situations anything that happened to Dawn doesn't really exist until season 5. So you could go back and watch the first 4 seasons trying to add Dawn in, but it doesn't change the outcome of the episode. The Master still drowns Buffy, Angel still loses his soul, Faith still goes bad, Riley and the Initiative are still around, so yea the monks put in a lot of work creating these memories. It'd be like trying to re-write all of the scripts to add in scenes with Dawn but not affect the overall story. Sounds like a challenge for Joss. lol

Except they shot themselves in the foot with that one. When Dawn was introduced they also released a comic book which showed how Dawn fit into pre-S5 canon. And that wasn't just the canon we know with a Dawn addendum inserted. It showed Dawn taking over roles previously played by the other characters. Whether these comics are canon or not doesn't matter as it clearly shows that the intention of Dawn's insertion into the story led to all the characters having different experiences than we know from canon. They show us Dawn following Buffy into the Master's lair ahead of Xander and Angel, pulling Buffy out of the water and while Xander is still the one perfoming CPR Dawn gets the credit for saving Buffy's life. When Angelus reveals himself for the first time in the highschool it's not Willow he grabs, it's Dawn. Extrapolate that the to many S1-3 (S4 not so much with this being the college year) events and you can't tell me the story stays even remotely the same.

Like you said Buffy would have also had less time to socialize so perhaps there wouldn't have been any Scoobies, just her, Giles, Angel and eventually Faith.

Oh I still think she would be friends with Xander and Willow since the show started in highschool so there is time to socialize during those hours. But with Dawn in the picture no way would they have had time to develop the close relationships we saw during those first Seasons. That can only come with spending time together outside the highschool time. And with Buffy having double duty of slaying and babysitting there would be almost no time at all for that. A consequence of that would be like I mentioned that Dawn takes over Willow's role in Buffy's life. Season 5 the show is split right down the middle. You have the Summers clan (+Spike) on one side and Willow/Xander are reduced to spending time with their significant others. Point me to just 1 scene where it's just B/W/X in S5. I don't think there was one.

Yeah this annoyed me greatly. She downright made Buffy out to be a disappointment to her which was so wrong on so many levels.

There isn't enough bile in the world for that development. I understand wanting to shelter Dawn from the horrors of Sunnydale. But when Dawn gets herself into trouble or they stumble upon a crime scene by accident and Joyce blames Buffy for dragging Dawn into it I want to take a baseball bat to Joyce's head. Even worse is that while Joyce is happy Buffy can take care of herself she resents her for bringing all this danger and darkness into their family life. Buffy didn't chose to become a slayer, it chose her. Which part of that is so hard for Joyce to grasp. But I've always had issues with Joyce's parenting from S1 on, Dawnverse or not.

I beg to differ. Our actions and/or our very presence in an event can be significant in the outcome. Factoring Dawn into the first 4 seasons would have changed a lot of Buffy's slaying and social life as I and @RomanticSoul have pointed out.
Just look at Wishverse. It's debatable that it was a real AU but still a valid possibility of a version of Sunnydale which never received Buffy.

Yeah it's sometimes hard for me to understand how such simple logic never occurs to Joss & Co. and many fans really. It's simple biology/psychology. We are who we are because of our experiences. Those are stored in our memories and shape who we become. You change these memories you change people.

 

[Taake]

First of all I knew there was a phone call, thank you for that.
About Dawn nearly being killed by Faith when was this conversation and when was it referring to in Season 3?

It's when Faith comes back in "Dirty Girls" and I only assumed it's during season 3 it's referenced to because that's when Faith was around but I suppose now that I think about it makes more sense if it had been season 4 (when Faith takes Joyce) so never mind that comment 🙂

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Except they shot themselves in the foot with that one. When Dawn was introduced they also released a comic book which showed how Dawn fit into pre-S5 canon. And that wasn't just the canon we know with a Dawn addendum inserted. It showed Dawn taking over roles previously played by the other characters. Whether these comics are canon or not doesn't matter as it clearly shows that the intention of Dawn's insertion into the story led to all the characters having different experiences than we know from canon. They show us Dawn following Buffy into the Master's lair ahead of Xander and Angel, pulling Buffy out of the water and while Xander is still the one perfoming CPR Dawn gets the credit for saving Buffy's life. When Angelus reveals himself for the first time in the highschool it's not Willow he grabs, it's Dawn. Extrapolate that the to many S1-3 (S4 not so much with this being the college year) events and you can't tell me the story stays even remotely the same.

I believe I may have heard of these. Some time ago in a 'Normal Again' discussion I was told of a comic that inserted Dawn into something that I'm sure was mentioned in season 4. Buffy reveals to Willow how she was briefly institutionalized for a week and in this comic Dawn was the reason for having showed her diary full of vampire mentions to Joyce. This doesn't fit because the way she told it to Willow she herself had gone to her parents terrified of vampires. What would have changed this in the Dawnverse?

Buffy didn't chose to become a slayer, it chose her. Which part of that is so hard for Joyce to grasp.

See that's the thing, she came to understand that without Dawn so that is credited solely to an unfair favoritism. We don't see her showing that level of concern for Buffy herself over the whole slayer business when she's the one intentionally being thrown into danger (by the counsel) vs Dawnverse where Dawn can choose to stay in the safety of their home but instead elects to tail big sis.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

It's when Faith comes back in "Dirty Girls" and I only assumed it's during season 3 it's referenced to because that's when Faith was around but I suppose now that I think about it makes more sense if it had been season 4 (when Faith takes Joyce) so never mind that comment 🙂

I always thought Dawn was talking about Faith trying to kill Buffy in S3. But she could have been talking about herself.

Except they shot themselves in the foot with that one. When Dawn was introduced they also released a comic book which showed how Dawn fit into pre-S5 canon.

Well I'm glad this isn't canon cause this is terrible. I like my idea better, I'll stick with that. But regardless like I said the monks didn't change history just the memories, so everything we see still happens, the scoobies just don't remember it that way.