The Dawn Effect and Team Angel

[thetopher]

Yeah, how is that supposed to work exactly? Dawn gets into the Master's lair with Xander, so therefore she knows all about Buffy being the slayer and doesn't tell Joyce for the entirety of S2? I don't think that's likely- I think Dawn would've ratted on Buffy at the first oppurtunity.

It fits better if Dawn found out about Buffy being the slayer when Joyce did, or maybe even a while after- which means that Dawn couldn't have been involved in any of the big s1/s2 events.

As for Dawn and Faith: Dawn mentions in S7 that there are hotels that take 'tried to kill your sister types' - she makes no mention of Faith ever trying to hurt her (although in S4 it might've been possible that when Faith took Joyce hostage she took Dawn hostage too)

 

[RomanticSoul]

Well I'm glad this isn't canon cause this is terrible. I like my idea better, I'll stick with that. But regardless like I said the monks didn't change history just the memories, so everything we see still happens, the scoobies just don't remember it that way.

Your idea still has the disclaimer 'don't remember it that way'. That is the stickler for me in this whole storyline. I don't dispute that the big things we know happened
actually did happen. But the journey there would be totally different. And that is just as character shaping as the actual event.

I could really go in an episode by episode way and how many things have to change to fit Dawn into it. For a lot of people this storyline worked. For me it's logic fail on every front with a little retconning thrown in and due to the changed memories a total disconnect with the story and the characters.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Your idea still has the disclaimer 'don't remember it that way'. That is the stickler for me in this whole storyline. I don't dispute that the big things we know happened
actually did happen. But the journey there would be totally different. And that is just as character shaping as the actual event.

I could really go in an episode by episode way and how many things have to change to fit Dawn into it. For a lot of people this storyline worked. For me it's logic fail on every front with a little retconning thrown in and due to the changed memories a total disconnect with the story and the characters.

I'm not saying that having those memories wouldn't change the characters slightly. Physically everything played out as we see it because those memories aren't real so they never actually happened. And the big moments would have to stay the same in order for Buffy to be where she is at in S5. Obviously having Dawn changing the dynamic of all the characters, they think all those things happened so they act accordingly, but as we see, Buffy still dies, she still kills Angel, Faith still tries to kill Buffy, Riley is still around. So the monks had to fit Dawn into Buffy's life without actually changing the outcome of those events but have it all still make sense to them that Dawn is around. I agree it's a logic fail and I don't like having to retcon things which is why I just don't with Dawn. She didn't exist until S5, so I'm not going to go back an pretend like she did.

 

[thetopher]

For me its as simple as Buffy and the others didn't change that much, therefore Dawn didn't have a huge impact on their lives. Buffy, Willow and Xander are still close. Buffy is dating Riley. Angel still happened and ended badly, as did the Faith thing.

I just naturally assumed that its part of Dawn's character that all her 'life' she's resented being ignored/overshadowed by her beautiful, super-powered sister who has some sort of sacred duty.
Dawn feels like she's been on the sidelines precisly because she has never affected anything around her- because of the way she was brought into being.

Also, as somebody who has an older brother (of about about five years difference) I can tell you that I had ZERO effect on his social life, friends, going out. His friends were not my friends because the age difference was usually too big. I had a seperate life. Sure, I thought some of his friends were cool (just like Dawn thinks of Willow/Xander as cool) but that's about it, I wasn't close to them.

I can't see Buffy having a sister affecting her that much lifestyle -wise. she went out slaying late at night, when a 10/11 year old (Dawn in S1-2) would usually be in bed anyway, and mostly Joyce would be there to look after Dawn.
I'm actually watching S2 right now and occasionally I do find myself thinking 'how would Dawn being here affect things?' and since a lot of the plot happens at school or the Bronxe- the answer is none.

The two or three times that it actually affected the plot could really just be explained away.
For example in s2 'What's My Line' when Joyce is away for days, I doubt she would've left Dawn alone in the house with Buffy (not the most responsible teen in Joyce's eyes) so she probably was with Joyce in LA, or was staying with her Dad, who also lives in LA- it's not exactly an incredible leap of logic, and doesn't affect my enjoyment of either seasons 1-4, or any of the seasons after Dawn's appearance.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Also, as somebody who has an older brother (of about about five years difference) I can tell you that I had ZERO effect on his social life, friends, going out. His friends were not my friends because the age difference was usually too big. I had a seperate life. Sure, I thought some of his friends were cool (just like Dawn thinks of Willow/Xander as cool) but that's about it, I wasn't close to them.

I can't see Buffy having a sister affecting her that much lifestyle -wise. she went out slaying late at night, when a 10/11 year old (Dawn in S1-2) would usually be in bed anyway, and mostly Joyce would be there to look after Dawn.
I'm actually watching S2 right now and occasionally I do find myself thinking 'how would Dawn being here affect things?' and since a lot of the plot happens at school or the Bronxe- the answer is none.

I agree. My sister is 3 years older than me and although she had to look after me a lot because we were also raised by our single mom, it didn't affect her social life. She got to stay out later and go out of town with them cause they were older than her. She's still friends with them, and they remember me when I was little but I wasn't trying to tag along everywhere like Dawn. I don't think Buffy would have had to do much babysitting as you say she slays out late at night when Dawn should be asleep or Joyce would be with Dawn since we know that Dawn was her little baby. I'm surprised she lets Buffy stay home for days, but then I guess Buffy has Giles.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Also, as somebody who has an older brother (of about about five years difference) I can tell you that I had ZERO effect on his social life, friends, going out. His friends were not my friends because the age difference was usually too big. I had a seperate life. Sure, I thought some of his friends were cool (just like Dawn thinks of Willow/Xander as cool) but that's about it, I wasn't close to them.

While you may not have had a huge impact on your older brother's life that doesn't necessarily apply to all siblings.
It's heavily implied by the way Joyce treats Buffy in Dawnverse that Dawn frequently followed Buffy around while she was on Slayer duty which inevitably would have had some kind impact on the playing out of the early seasons. This comic or these comics seem(s) to have played off this and made some interesting suggestions tough I don't consider them canon unless Joss said they are.

BTW, I've always wanted an older brother. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

It's heavily implied by the way Joyce treats Buffy in Dawnverse that Dawn frequently followed Buffy around while she was on Slayer duty which inevitably would have had some kind impact on the playing out of the early seasons.

That may indeed be true, but Joyce only found out about Buffy being the slayer at the very end of S2 when Buffy leaves home.
We can only assume the same of Dawn finding out about Buffy's secret life- whatever some comic might say the only logic is that Dawn found out at the same time (or a while after) her Mom.

Therefore Dawn could only really affect anything 'slayer-related' in S3. (I can easily see Dawn trying to follow Buffy and- specifically- Faith out on patrol because she thought it was 'cool')
The ammount of time Buffy spends at home in s4 ammounts to maybe 30 minutes of screen time for the entire season, so Dawn wouldn't affect that season in any way.- basically if we don't see Joyce, we don't see Dawn.

Also as I remember, what with Joyce's extreme reaction to what is a very minor mistake on Buffy's part (she took Dawn to a shop in the daytime and unfortunately somebody had died there) it's entirely possible that nothing like this had ever happen to Dawn in their memories.

If Dawn had been in contact with Buffy's slaying life at all in the past, (as in put in danger, held hostage by Angelus- I mean seriously?- or in fact seeing anything scary, gross or traumatic) then Joyce wouldn't have overreacted in the way she did.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

@thetopher
"The Only Logic"? That right there is an assumption. Why is this so? If Dawn liked to follow Buffy around even before knowing about the slayer life, which is entirely possible she'd have found out before Joyce.
Personally if Dawn had been kidnapped by Angelus or had fallen in the middle of slaying danger multiple times that would actually validate Joyce's extreme protectiveness.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I never really cared so much about what changed about Buffy's slaying when Dawn was introduced. I watched this show for the characters and their relationships. That's where the most change has had to happen once you give Buffy a younger sibling. Unless Joyce's job demands were completely rewritten as well I'm going to assume late night's at the gallery and out of twon for days still applies. Which means soemone has to stay home with Dawn. That automatically leaves less time for Buffy to do her own socializing.

Really WML P1 is an episode where I can't make it work. Joyce is out of town for days so Buffy is taking care of Dawn. No way can she go to the ice skating ring for a date with Angel. No attack of the Taraka assasin there so how did they find out about them being after her? Also the assasin set up across the street springs into action as soon as Dawn steps of the school bus. Even if Dawn was with Buffy at the time I still can't see Buffy taking her over to Angel's place. So then where did they spend the night? How did Kendra find out Angel is a vampire (no ice skating date after all)? And did Kendra attack Buffy still even with Dawn right there? Or attack Dawn herself? And the questions go on.

That's my beef with the rewritten memories. I don't doubt the same big things happened, even the same MOTWs. But the journey through all of this might have been completely different. And when the show devided into 2 camps in S5 (Summers clan vs. Scoobies+partners) that wasn't very fun. And only got worse from then on out. Getting rid of the Buffy/Willow friendship didn't just mean less focus on their relationship but also made Xander less important. It turned Buffy into a reactionary hero which wasn't fun either. There is less protecting general public or the average person (S5 almost all bad guys came for Buffy, Dawn or a Scoobie). Increased isolation eventually led us to S7 where there was nothing outside of Buffy's living room.

 

[thetopher]

"The Only Logic"? That right there is an assumption. Why is this so? If Dawn liked to follow Buffy around even before knowing about the slayer life, which is entirely possible she'd have found out before Joyce.

I simply can't imagine any scenario where Dawn finds out Buffy's secret and doesn't either immediately run to her Mom with the knowledge, or yells 'I'm telling Mom that you're the slayer!' the first time Buffy and her have a squabble. That's how siblings are- Dawn is certainly bratty enough to do it.
Okay, there's the question about whether Joyce would've believed Dawn, but her constant, loud claims/whining, plus all the denial Joyce was doing...I think its likely Joyce would've asked more questions sooner.

The assumption here is that Dawn liked to follow Buffy around before she knew that she was the slayer- that's pure conjection from what I can see.
Why would Dawn do this? There's no reason- Dawn would've been what...10 yrs old during S2, 11 during S3, and Buffy is 17/18?- that's a significant age gap and doesn't really lend itself to 'my sister is constantly in my life- I'm going to follow her around.' 😕

In S5, when Dawn is 14 and (like at lot of young teenagers) feels a lot more independant and curious we see that she feels old enough to act on that curiousity.

As I've said, I've seen a lot of S2 recently and I don't see the addition of an 11 yr old kid effecting the plots that much. There are a few-Buffy household centric plots 'Inca Mummy Girl', 'Halloween', WML Pt 1', 'Ted', 'Bad Eggs', 'Passion' that may need some tweaking, but nothing plot ruinous.

I just don't get the whole 'Dawn getting reconned into being ruined the show for me' argument, nor do I ever think of Dawn as a plot device (or at least just as a plot device) - she's a character with good and bad personality traits. People wouldn't find her so irritating otherwise. 😉

 

[janas]

If I remember correctly, Joyce finds out that Buffy is the Slayer before even going to Sunnydale.

From "Normal again"

WILLOW: Buffy, look at me. You are not in an institution. You have never been in an institution.
BUFFY: Yes I have.
WILLOW: What?
BUFFY: Back when I saw my first vampires. I got so scared. I told my parents and they completely freaked out. They thought there was something seriously wrong with me. So they sent me to a clinic.
WILLOW: You never said anything...
BUFFY: I was only there a couple of weeks. I stopped talking about it and they let me go. Eventually, my parents just, forgot.

Buffy is talking about when her was still living in Los Angeles.

 

[thetopher]

Well, Joyce finds that out with no evidence or context to back it up. She knows nothing about the supernaural and so assumes that Buffy is lying/acting out/maybe mentally disturbed in some way.
In S2 she see's Buffy stake a vampire right in front of her, that combined with all the evidence that came from living on a Hellmouth, is when she finally believes what Buffy told her years ago.

Then again it's not a great explanation (for which I blame the flawed writing of S6) because Buffy mentioned being a vampire slayer a few times:
whilst 'drunk' in 'The Witch'.
mentions in again (as a lame joke) in 'Bad Eggs'
also blurts it out something about 'demons' when in a fever in 'Killed By Death'.

It makes Joyce seem even denser (and crueler) than she must've been to not think something was up sooner.
Also it's entirely possible that Dawn had those same 'Sunnydale denial' blinders on that her Mom did, that she just thought that her older sister was just 'weird' or a 'troublemaker' or whatever.

 

[janas]

It makes Joyce seem even denser (and crueler) than she must've been to not think something was up sooner.

I think Joyce was just a frightened mother. Can a mother accept a light heart that her daughter is the Chosen One? I think not.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

If I remember correctly, Joyce finds out that Buffy is the Slayer before even going to Sunnydale.

From "Normal again"

WILLOW: Buffy, look at me. You are not in an institution. You have never been in an institution.
BUFFY: Yes I have.
WILLOW: What?
BUFFY: Back when I saw my first vampires. I got so scared. I told my parents and they completely freaked out. They thought there was something seriously wrong with me. So they sent me to a clinic.
WILLOW: You never said anything...
BUFFY: I was only there a couple of weeks. I stopped talking about it and they let me go. Eventually, my parents just, forgot.

Buffy is talking about when her was still living in Los Angeles.

But you've answered your own question here, the institution says it all, that at that point Joyce responded to it as a mental illness. When she found out in Sunnydale there was evidence to back that it was truth.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

***************

The assumption here is that Dawn liked to follow Buffy around before she knew that she was the slayer- that's pure conjection from what I can see.
Why would Dawn do this? There's no reason- Dawn would've been what...10 yrs old during S2, 11 during S3, and Buffy is 17/18?- that's a significant age gap and doesn't really lend itself to 'my sister is constantly in my life- I'm going to follow her around.' 😕
There are a few-Buffy household centric plots 'Inca Mummy Girl', 'Halloween', WML Pt 1', 'Ted', 'Bad Eggs', 'Passion' that may need some tweaking, but nothing plot ruinous.

I agree. Following your older sibling around is usually just following around the house or when they have to be in the same area as you. It's not like Dawn's following Buffy to school, or the Bronze which are the big spots in the first 3 seasons. I don't think Joyce is going to let Dawn out after dark and surely Buffy's not going to let her follow her into the graveyards. So I can't see Dawn constantly being around, maybe she has to tag along to Willows house or the Library a few times but nothing huge that would really affect anything. This makes me think about 'Halloween' because surely Dawn would have gone to Ethan's shop with Buffy to get her costume, so she probably turned into her costume. I'm not sure how the town actually rationalized that one. The other possibility is that maybe Dawn spent more time with her dad than Buffy did. And yea I don't see Joyce leaving Dawn home with Buffy for a few days, she either took her to LA with her or dropped her off at one of Dawns friends house whose parents she trusts.

Then again it's not a great explanation (for which I blame the flawed writing of S6) because Buffy mentioned being a vampire slayer a few times:
whilst 'drunk' in 'The Witch'.
mentions in again (as a lame joke) in 'Bad Eggs'
also blurts it out something about 'demons' when in a fever in 'Killed By Death'.

Yea after knowing that they sent Buffy to the mental institute and then watching that scene in 'Bad Eggs' I was like, surely Joyce would have said something like 'Oh not this again Buffy'. But she doesn't she just takes it as a joke. I guess she really did forget. That's on scene where the retcon doesn't work for me.

 

[janas]

But you've answered your own question here, the institution says it all, that at that point Joyce responded to it as a mental illness. When she found out in Sunnydale there was evidence to back that it was truth.

Well, we can also say that, at that point, when she found out in Sunnydale, she couldn't deny the evidence of facts. But the fact remains that Buffy's parents were aware that their daughter was a slayer and like any "normal" person, they have reacted with the "Denial" (one of the defense mechanisms of Ego described by Freud)

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Yea after knowing that they sent Buffy to the mental institute and then watching that scene in 'Bad Eggs' I was like, surely Joyce would have said something like 'Oh not this again Buffy'. But she doesn't she just takes it as a joke. I guess she really did forget. That's on scene where the retcon doesn't work for me.

It unsettled me too how Joyce wouldn't have brought up this institution visit when she found out in Sunnydale.

Well, we can also say that, at that point, when she found out in Sunnydale, she couldn't deny the evidence of facts. But the fact remains that Buffy's parents were aware that their daughter was a slayer and like any "normal" person, they have reacted with the "Denial" (one of the defense mechanisms of Ego described by Freud)

Except that's not what they knew it was, they thought her talk of vampires was hallucinations why else the institution?

 

[RomanticSoul]

It unsettled me too how Joyce wouldn't have brought up this institution visit when she found out in Sunnydale.

Don't try to hurt your brain too much with this asylum retcon BS. Buffy has several slips in the early Seasons and Joyce is basically just like 'Sometimes you say the oddest things.' and shrugs it off. That really the reaction of a parent whose child has been institutionalized? Gimme a break. 😵

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Don't try to hurt your brain too much with this asylum retcon BS. Buffy has several slips in the early Seasons and Joyce is basically just like 'Sometimes you say the oddest things.' and shrugs it off. That really the reaction of a parent whose child has been institutionalized? Gimme a break. 😵

Agreed, it doesn't add up. I'm beginning to think Buffy's mention of being institutionalized was just thrown in there out of Joss's ass, there's just no other way the necessary season 2 reference(s) was absent. That's just sloppy.