The Debate

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Sineya
Okay guys - For this debate the topic will be:

"Angel would have been better off if he had never met Doyle." For, and against.


These are the teams made of those who signed up.

Team One:
Willow-Tree
Tasha
BuffyStuff

Team Two:
Emzzie
SpikesAngel11
joan the Vampire Slayer

Team One are Against
Team Two are For

Team Two will open the debate.

Each member of the team will be given the opportunity to speak, each team alternating members (person 1 from team two will go first, followed by person 1 from team one and so forth).

Each team should get together via pm/messenger/email, then teams can discuss their arguments, the order they will post, etc.

The debate will start on the 27th.
 
Would he have? That's a difficult question. Surely he would have been spared the pain of Doyle's death, but he would have lost the brief but memorable friendship they shared. I felt like on some level Doyle and Angel were kindred spirits. Both were haunted by their pasts, and both wanted to make up for it by doing good.
 
I don't think Angel would have been better off without Doyle. Doyle gave Cordy the visions and Angel followed them helping people so Angel needed to meet Doyle to continue to fight the good fight.
 
Nope, there is no way Angel would have been better off if he had never met Doyle. If Angel had stayed being a recluse and not had Doyle with him, he would have never pulled himself out of his depression about having to leave Buffy. Doyle taught Angel to deal with his pain and do something about it. He showed Angel that as much as he loved Buffy, he should do something that would make her proud and fight the same fight as her. He showed Angel that although Buffy had helped him to become the person he was, he was worthy enough to stand as his own person now and he could make something of himself now.

Doyle offered Angel something that no other character ever had; friendship. And sadly, despite the strength of the A.I team I don't think Wesley or Gunn, or Cordy could ever be that type of 'friend' that Doyle was to Angel, and Angel wouldn't be half the man is he is now without that time he spent with Doyle.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Highly agreed!
W
Willow-Tree
I'm sorry, but Cordelia has had MUCH more of an impact on Angel that Doyle did. :/
Angel had gone to L.A. because his friendship with Buffy had become a relationship which had unforseen circumstances. Yet he had that taste of friendship.
Doyle directed him to help others and he did, he wanted to help. So even if he had not met Doyle he would probably have moved to the path of helping others, it may have taken longer but he would have got there.
So Doyle being a part of his life was a fact, but not a neccesary part, Angel would have found that path. To be seen as good, by the person he wanted to be a friend to, Buffy.
 
I don't think so. As we saw in "City of", Angel was already starting to lose touch with reality. The blood from that victim in the alley was tempting for him, and if he had never met Doyle, I think Angel might have reverted back to Angelus without losing his soul, which is a scary thought. I think he was brooding a little too much, even for Angel, and Doyle was exactly what he needed exactly when he needed it. Doyle was his friend, but also the person to kick his ass in the right direction. 🙂
 
I'm sorry I wasn't able to contribute to the original plan of debate, I was in Italy and I had no internet & only visited an internet cafe twice of which I only had about 10 minutes to do stuff online! I should have thought about it all before I asked to participate, I'm sorry!

What is certain is that without Doyle, Angel wouldn't have began helping the helpless as soon as he should have and would have with his friend's help. Angel's a tortured soul, and his reason for living is to help others for the purpose of atonement and providing his life with a greater meaning. Doyle provided him with that. His visions brought them both a chance to help others, and to make up for evil and wrongness both of them perpetrated in the past. Like Angel, Doyle also lives with guilt, and so the knowledge that he's using his gift to do good must be gratifying. Without Angel's strength and skill, he wouldn't have been able to utilize his powers, and without Doyle's visions, Angel wouldn't have been able to save so many people. Whether or not their meeting was good or bad for them personally, it certainly was the best for the bigger picture; perhaps without Doyle, Angel Investigations wouldn't have been possible, and without AI many would be dead. Of course if we're just talking about whether Angel himself would've been better off, I believe the same scenario for him is true. There's so much evil in the world, and while I don't believe he'd ever willingly revert back into Angelus, him sitting around doing nothing could be a comparable evil when he could easily be out there doing something. With Doyle's help, he was able to transform his life into something more worth while, and I think he benefited from that significantly, especially taking into account his desire to right his past wrongs.
 
I don't think so. As we saw in "City of", Angel was already starting to lose touch with reality. The blood from that victim in the alley was tempting for him, and if he had never met Doyle, I think Angel might have reverted back to Angelus without losing his soul, which is a scary thought. I think he was brooding a little too much, even for Angel, and Doyle was exactly what he needed exactly when he needed it. Doyle was his friend, but also the person to kick his ass in the right direction. 🙂

I doubt that he would have reverted back to anything like Angelus, but he would probably have withdrawn from society, as he was in "Are You Now..." at best or reverted to the rat eating, alley dwelling, homeless Angel that he was before Whistler originally found him. Angel has always struck me as the kind of person who is by nature solitary, even reclusive. From the first time that we saw him in Sunnydale until he left to go to Los Angeles, he is always alone, with Buffy, or dropping in at the library with some tidbit of information, then leaving as soon as he delivered it. Angel was never the sort of person to hang out with friends at the local bar or have the gang over for hot dogs, beer, and a John Wayne movie marathon. As far as that goes, Angel was never shown as ever having any friends. He was on relatively civil terms with Giles and the Scoobies, but the only person in Sunnydale who he ever was on more than a nodding acquaintance with, was Buffy.

Doyle did in LA almost exactly the same thing that Buffy did in Sunnydale, without the "moment of perfect happiness" factor involved. He drug a reluctant Angel out from under his rock and forced him to associate with people on a regular basis. Without Doyle and Cordy, and, later, Wes and Gunn, Angel would in all liklihood have started out like Batman, lurking in the shadows, leaping out to strike a blow at the bad guys. But, unlike Batman, there would have been no Alfred, no Robin, not even a Bruce Wayne secret identity in which to withdraw from the fight and rest occasionally. Angel would always be Angel. But, very possibly, he wouldn't be the hero for very long.

Buffy, and his feelings for her, were the only real things that ever inspired Angel to he a hero or champion, to help the hopeless. As far as we know, from what flashbacks we were shown, he never went out of his way to fight evil before coming to Sunnydale, and he never would have come to Sunnydale if Whistler hadn't dragged him out of that alley and convinced him to help the new Slayer. Buffy was the spark that started the fire of Angel's heroism, and the flame that kept it burning. Without that, or a substitute for it, Angel's moment of heroism could not have lasted indefinitely. He almost certainly would not have become a creature of evil again, but it is highly likely that, without continued encouragement from a different source, primarily Doyle in the beginning, but just as surely Cordy and the others eventually, Angel would have given up the fight within the first year. He would never have reached his moment of epiphany, "If nothing that we do really matters, then the only thing that really matters is what we do," and without tyhat, he would never have developed the fortitude necessary to continue the battle on his own.
 
I doubt that he would have reverted back to anything like Angelus, but he would probably have withdrawn from society, as he was in "Are You Now..." at best or reverted to the rat eating, alley dwelling, homeless Angel that he was before Whistler originally found him. Angel has always struck me as the kind of person who is by nature solitary, even reclusive. From the first time that we saw him in Sunnydale until he left to go to Los Angeles, he is always alone, with Buffy, or dropping in at the library with some tidbit of information, then leaving as soon as he delivered it. Angel was never the sort of person to hang out with friends at the local bar or have the gang over for hot dogs, beer, and a John Wayne movie marathon. As far as that goes, Angel was never shown as ever having any friends. He was on relatively civil terms with Giles and the Scoobies, but the only person in Sunnydale who he ever was on more than a nodding acquaintance with, was Buffy.

I don't know, I think he could have ended up being like he is season two when Darla returns. I think the rat eating, alley hiding Angel is a possibility but the first time he behaved that way he simply felt sorry for his own situation, where as after leaving Buffy I think he would have suffered the same sort of alienation and depression that he does in season two, now that he had lost Buffy and any connection to a 'normal' life.

And I also think, that given Angel's involvement with the Scoobies in 'Surprise' in the library and how comfortable he is at the party, that had he not reverted to Angelus I think he would have become a much more integral part of the Scoobies and more than just a nodding acquaintance. I would go so far as to say that his relationship with Giles and Willow was already much more than that.

Although Buffy did inspire heroism within Angel, as did Whistler, without Doyle he wouldn't have carried on with it. He would have simply dwelt upon no longer being around the person who made him want to be a better man.
 
Nope, there is no way Angel would have been better off if he had never met Doyle. If Angel had stayed being a recluse and not had Doyle with him, he would have never pulled himself out of his depression about having to leave Buffy. Doyle taught Angel to deal with his pain and do something about it. He showed Angel that as much as he loved Buffy, he should do something that would make her proud and fight the same fight as her. He showed Angel that although Buffy had helped him to become the person he was, he was worthy enough to stand as his own person now and he could make something of himself now.

Doyle offered Angel something that no other character ever had; friendship. And sadly, despite the strength of the A.I team I don't think Wesley or Gunn, or Cordy could ever be that type of 'friend' that Doyle was to Angel, and Angel wouldn't be half the man is he is now without that time he spent with Doyle.

I agree with everything you said except Cordy not being as good a friend as Doyle. I believe she was one of the best friends he ever had. He called her his "dearest friend." To me, Cordy took the place of Doyle after he died, as Angel's support, ally, and confidant. Perhaps that was symbolized in the transferring of the visions. Whether or not you think their "romance" was badly executed, you have to admit that Cordy was one of the best friends that he ever had. Doyle in "City Of", like Cordy in "You're Welcome" were instrumental in keeping Angel on track with his mission and battling his depression and disallusionment.

And as HisMrs said; who's to say that Angel wouldn't have fallen to the darkside without them? Back into Angelus? He almost did when he fired them.
 
I agree with everything you said except Cordy not being as good a friend as Doyle. I believe she was one of the best friends he ever had. He called her his "dearest friend." To me, Cordy took the place of Doyle after he died, as Angel's support, ally, and confidant. Perhaps that was symbolized in the transferring of the visions. Whether or not you think their "romance" was badly executed, you have to admit that Cordy was one of the best friends that he ever had. Doyle in "City Of", like Cordy in "You're Welcome" were instrumental in keeping Angel on track with his mission and battling his depression and disallusionment.

And as HisMrs said; who's to say that Angel wouldn't have fallen to the darkside without them? Back into Angelus? He almost did when he fired them.

I didn't mean to diminish that Cordy was one of, if not THE, best friend that Angel ever had. In fact, it's what I love about them, that friendship. But I think that Doyle gave Angel that 'maleness' that he had been lacking. Totally stereotypical, I'm aware of that; that men need manly friends, but it doesn't make me think any different about it. Doyle gave Angel male emotional support that Cordy, no matter how close they became, could ever replace.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Yeah, I could see that. His friendships with men were certsinly different then his friendships with women. I think, at least with Fred and Nina, he wanted to protect them, while he was on more even ground with the men - if that makes sense.
I doubt that he would have reverted back to anything like Angelus, but he would probably have withdrawn from society, as he was in "Are You Now..." at best or reverted to the rat eating, alley dwelling, homeless Angel that he was before Whistler originally found him. Angel has always struck me as the kind of person who is by nature solitary, even reclusive. From the first time that we saw him in Sunnydale until he left to go to Los Angeles, he is always alone, with Buffy, or dropping in at the library with some tidbit of information, then leaving as soon as he delivered it. Angel was never the sort of person to hang out with friends at the local bar or have the gang over for hot dogs, beer, and a John Wayne movie marathon. As far as that goes, Angel was never shown as ever having any friends. He was on relatively civil terms with Giles and the Scoobies, but the only person in Sunnydale who he ever was on more than a nodding acquaintance with, was Buffy.

Doyle did in LA almost exactly the same thing that Buffy did in Sunnydale, without the "moment of perfect happiness" factor involved. He drug a reluctant Angel out from under his rock and forced him to associate with people on a regular basis. Without Doyle and Cordy, and, later, Wes and Gunn, Angel would in all liklihood have started out like Batman, lurking in the shadows, leaping out to strike a blow at the bad guys. But, unlike Batman, there would have been no Alfred, no Robin, not even a Bruce Wayne secret identity in which to withdraw from the fight and rest occasionally. Angel would always be Angel. But, very possibly, he wouldn't be the hero for very long.

Buffy, and his feelings for her, were the only real things that ever inspired Angel to he a hero or champion, to help the hopeless. As far as we know, from what flashbacks we were shown, he never went out of his way to fight evil before coming to Sunnydale, and he never would have come to Sunnydale if Whistler hadn't dragged him out of that alley and convinced him to help the new Slayer. Buffy was the spark that started the fire of Angel's heroism, and the flame that kept it burning. Without that, or a substitute for it, Angel's moment of heroism could not have lasted indefinitely. He almost certainly would not have become a creature of evil again, but it is highly likely that, without continued encouragement from a different source, primarily Doyle in the beginning, but just as surely Cordy and the others eventually, Angel would have given up the fight within the first year. He would never have reached his moment of epiphany, "If nothing that we do really matters, then the only thing that really matters is what we do," and without tyhat, he would never have developed the fortitude necessary to continue the battle on his own.

I think we can't really know how Angel would have acted in L.A. had Doyle not found him and forced him to integrate into society again. Angel was then and will always be at war with his alter ago; the side of him that tells him to give up and give into his dark side. The side that tells him nothing matters and he can't make a different. Its his friends that keep him grounded and convince him that he does and can make a difference. It was Doyle who gave the visions to Cordy which helped Angel save people.

Great point about Buffy being the reason and inspiration for him to get his life together and fight evil. Because Angel is such a hero and has been for so long, I think we forget that he wasn't always like that. It was as a result of his love for her (like with Spike) that he was inspired to be a better man and help the helpless.
 
I don't really remember Angel too well, so I'm not sure if my opinion is too valid. Based off both shows, Buffy and Angel, I think things would have been differently, but not that much. Angel was always very broody, I think, so his mood change in earlier episodes wasn't really very uncharacteristic of him. He may not have fought the same villians, or saved the same innocents, but I think he still would have continued the good fight. Cordelia would have died or left Angel's side regardless, right? Didn't he save her from that rich vampire guy in the very first episode? Had he not been there, she would have died. I'm under the impression Cordelia became a 'higher power' because of the visions. So, am I right to assume the only reason she was taken away from Angel in the way that she was because of Doyle, inadvertantly?
 
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