The Deconstruction of Spike

[pks8304]

I love the Spike character. School Hard was my first episode of Buffy and I was hooked ( and I do believe it had a large part to do with the Spike character)

When the Initiative gave Spike his chip in season 4, I liked the idea. Angel had left the show and having Spike as the new Vampire character to step in was a good choice and the chip gave him a plausible reason to be there and not be up to his usual shenannigans.

I cringed when the storyline started in season 5 that Spike was falling in love with Buffy, the whole idea never really sat well with me.

Than Buffy got all messed up in the head in season 6 and started down that disturbing road with Spike and it turned my stomach. I almost stopped watching the series, between that and the trio of nerds that at first were funny but too much of a good thing can be bad, I was really missing the Buffy show and Spike I knew and loved.

6 managed to end strong with the trio story going dark and Willow falling to the dark side, the return of Giles was epic at that point, but amidst that the writers took Spike even further down the road that I felt was moving him away from his character.

In season 7 Spike with a soul was in my opinion a terrible mistake, while it wasnt necessarily a rehash of the Angel story regardless of the fact that it was a tortured vampire with a sould in love with the slayer AGAIN, it just seemed to disconnect Spike from who he was.

I think it was the writers way of trying to salvage the mess they made through season 5 and 6 but it was the same writers that created that mess to begin with. I did like his interactions with the First and being slightly insane and I thought the history with Robin was great, I just posted in another thread about that whole dynamic between Spike and Nikki (Robin's mom) in a book called Blackout by Keith RA DeCandido (highly recommend it).

Ironically it was season 5 of Angel that I really felt like they started to get Spike back on track to who he was, I say ironic because I felt that the whole cast of Angel was falling apart that season and I wasnt surprised the show got axed regardless of how awesome the idea for season 6 was going to be, Oz or no Oz, 5 was a rough season.

I wish we could have seen more of Spike after season 5, like a 2 hour tv movie. James Marsters is an excellent actor. I know they go on in the comics but its not the same.

Any thoughts, agree or disagree?

 

[Ripper666]

In season 7 Spike with a soul was in my opinion a terrible mistake, while it wasnt necessarily a rehash of the Angel story regardless of the fact that it was a tortured vampire with a sould in love with the slayer AGAIN, it just seemed to disconnect Spike from who he was.

See what you mean. First of all I thoug the same. But then they showed through what a martyrium Spike goes through. He nearly gone mad. They showed that in contrary to Angel, Spike had to pay a high prize.

I asked me some questions about Spike, too!
What will happen if Spike experiences a moment of full happiness, will he lose his soul just like Angel would?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I happen to think that Spike's arc from season 4 and on is one of the greatest stories told in fiction. I've written many a post about it on the boards so I won't go into a dissertation here. 😉
Suffice it to say that this for me is not a "mess" or at any point a mirroring of Angel's involuntary turn toward soulfulness. It's about a man who was turned into a monster and found his way back to being a man again, empowered and inspired merely by love and the insight he'd gained as a result of not being able to hurt people. That's the extremely simplified version, at least!

And welcome! 😀

 

[white avenger]

What will happen if Spike experiences a moment of full happiness, will he lose his soul just like Angel would?

No, that's the point (at least I THINK that it's the point) in having Spike travel all the way to Africa to earn his soul. If Willow can recreate the spell that got Angel his soul, based on information available over the internet, there would have almost certainly been some other witch, wizard, sorcerer, or necromancer around somewhere who would be at least willing to try the same thing for Spike, if he offered them enough money or threatened them sufficiently (a bluff, obviously, because of the chip) But no human would be able to control sufficient power to restore his soul, entirely and permanently. The "moment of complete happiness" clause works as a buffer, making the soul only a temporary curse or gift, depending on point of view. Only a demon such as the one in Africa would have sufficient power to invoke the total, unconditional, permanent restoration spell.

What the Gypsies cursed Angelus with was the best that they could manage, probably on the assumption that the weight of his guilt would have either caused the newly ensouled vampire to kill himself or be killed as an outsider by his former family. It was never meant to be permanent, or even long lasting.

To use a literary metaphor, Spike got the full, unabridged version, and all that Angel got was the Cliff's Notes.

 

[zobothehobo]

Ironically it was season 5 of Angel that I really felt like they started to get Spike back on track to who he was

Just out of curiosity, who exactly do you think Spike is? He's hard on the outside, but a big softy in the inside. That's been his character from day one (season 2, not his life). When he gets chipped, he can't be as hard on the outside... and his soft shows through. And through falling in love with Buffy, he learns something he should have learned years ago. That you always have a choice. In season 6, he was faced with a choice: go back to being hard on the outside and soft on the inside, or really bring his soft inner self to the surface. He chooses to be the man he can be, the good man he can be because of his astounding love for Buffy. Because he wants to give her everything she deserves, and she deserves nothing but the best he can offer. Seasons 5 and 6 and the Spike side of the Spuffy arc in those seasons are kind of the epitome of Spike at his inner and deepest core.

That's why I'll never understand people who don't like Spike after "he went soft" because he was always like that. Remember Dru? He just let it show.

 

[RipperGilesFan]

I liked Spike until the whole Spuffy thing started. To me it basically ruined his character.

From sassy, funny character with a bite, he changed into a lovesick/buffy obsessed character who really didn't do a whole lot for me anymore 🙁

And, no, I don't ship bangel, so it's not the reason i've never been able to ship Spuffy 😀


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[pks8304]

Just out of curiosity, who exactly do you think Spike is? He's hard on the outside, but a big softy in the inside. That's been his character from day one (season 2, not his life). When he gets chipped, he can't be as hard on the outside... and his soft shows through. And through falling in love with Buffy, he learns something he should have learned years ago. That you always have a choice. In season 6, he was faced with a choice: go back to being hard on the outside and soft on the inside, or really bring his soft inner self to the surface. He chooses to be the man he can be, the good man he can be because of his astounding love for Buffy. Because he wants to give her everything she deserves, and she deserves nothing but the best he can offer. Seasons 5 and 6 and the Spike side of the Spuffy arc in those seasons are kind of the epitome of Spike at his inner and deepest core.

That's why I'll never understand people who don't like Spike after "he went soft" because he was always like that. Remember Dru? He just let it show.

Dont confuse William with Spike and remember William the Bloody is Spike, he got the name Spike because he used to drive railroad spikes through people's heads. The whole hard on the outside soft on the inside is where the flawed writing of character begins.

Spike was in love with Drusilla, that was not his soft side coming out that was Spike finding connection with someone that was not only evil like him but worse, in alot of ways Drusilla was something Spike could aspire to, he was obsessed with her. The relationship was at the end of the day very one sided because when Drusilla was done with him, that was it, and yes the episode in season 5 where Dru comes back for Spike and ties up Buffy and Harmony was in my opinion part of the flawed writing.

Spike was so upset she left him in Lover's Walk because he was cut off from his fix.

Spike is a self serving, violent, cunning bastard who is the shit and knows he is. So for him to do an about face and fall head over heels for Buffy and want to become a better man and fight the good fight and find his hinner self is complete and total bs.

There is a reason people call Season 6, Season sucks.

They wanted Spike to be part of the cast, but lets face it Spike from season 2-most of 4 would not fit in with the group minus the chip for any long term period.

 

[VisionGirl]

I disagree with both of you somewhat. I do think that Spike's story is compelling. But I would never call him a "softie" inside, especially pre-soul. He is a vampire, and is known to be a particularly ferocious one. No matter how he changes before he seeks his soul, he is still a beast, and he knows it (which is why he seeks it). Now obviously the chip does something for him, provides an opportunity to change, that is unprecedented. Whether someone wants to call it a "muzzle" or pseudo-soul, or whatever. But as different as Spike is chipped from Angelus without a soul, he is still different from how he is souled. Granted with Spike it is more of a progression, less of a dramatic change. But the change is still there. While he claims to "love" Buffy, I think that he is constitutionally incapable of true, selfless love. His actions in season 6 are incredibly selfish. He wants Buffy "in the dark, with [him]". He doesn't care that it leads to depression & self-loathing for Buffy. Ironically, what is not good for Buffy is also the thing that helps her survive: Spike. He doesn't seek his soul because he is a good man; he seeks his soul because he is not. And he knows it. What is the end result of their relationship in season 6? Buffy brutalizing him and Spike almost raping her. Can you imagine him doing any of this kind of stuff to her in season 7? No, we cannot. Because he has a conscience, he has the ability to see how his actions affect her, and wants what's best for her even if it isn't him! The fact that he even seeks a soul of his own accord is amazing. But still in season 7 we see that what motivates him is Buffy. And that's not enough. By the end of the season he finds that he has to be able to do what's right for himself. That's the pinnacle of his character. Season 5 of Angel expands on that, I think. I know that fans have a love/hate relationship with season 5, and I know that Spike is not the main character. But I think his development is interesting and necessary. Although more subtle than Angel (he doesn't spend decades in isolation & self-loathing), he does start to feel the weight of his soul, the guilt of his actions. He and Angel reflect on their victims. He starts to wonder about a destiny that is his alone. The IDW comics continue Spike's journey. I've been underwhelmed about his story in the Dark Horse comics thus far (besides the bug ship, that is awesome!), but we shall see what season 9 brings us.

And the whole discussion leads me to ponder 2 questions: What would Spike be like if he hadn't been chipped in season 4? What would Spike be like if he had his chip removed before he got his soul, would he have continued on his current progression and sought it out, or would he have gone a different direction?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

He doesn't seek his soul because he is a good man; he seeks his soul because he is not. And he knows it.

I mostly agree; I would just argue that though he is of course not completely good before he gets his soul, he is good enough to want to get it. Which is something I feel he often doesn't get enough credit for. As you said, he knows he's not wholly good. And only someone who has attained some degree of goodness can decide that he/she needs to be more good; or needs to ensure that he/she won't be tempted to harm others. If he were flat out "not good" or "bad," he would have no desire whatsoever to change his composition IMO for Buffy, or for anything.

I disagree with both of you somewhat. I do think that Spike's story is compelling. But I would never call him a "softie" inside, especially pre-soul. He is a vampire, and is known to be a particularly ferocious one.

So...I think what Zobs meant in her post, and what I think too, (and please don't kill me if I'm totally wrong and not getting it, Z!), is that Spike is a softie relative to whatever else he "is." So in other words, while most vampires are ruthless and don't experience any traits that mirror those of humans such as love or jealousy, Spike does. And to a far greater extent than Drusilla; he wants to be faithful to her unconditionally. Then look at what he's able to achieve pre soul. His actions aren't necessarily and always considered appropriate by human standards, but he forces himself to adjust them because he loves--aka "softie" traits, (of course I'm referring to the inappropriate things he did have the ability to do with his chip such as bot-having, shrine making, etc.) By human standards, that's not soft, (though an argument can be made that even among human beings for whom there is a "higher moral bar" than vamps, adjusting your natural behavior to suit another's preferences is categorically "soft," "sweet," "caring," regardless of what said actions are.) Did that make sense? Is that not at all what you meant, Zobo?

Because he has a conscience, he has the ability to see how his actions affect her, and wants what's best for her even if it isn't him! The fact that he even seeks a soul of his own accord is amazing. But still in season 7 we see that what motivates him is Buffy. And that's not enough. By the end of the season he finds that he has to be able to do what's right for himself. That's the pinnacle of his character. Season 5 of Angel expands on that, I think. I know that fans have a love/hate relationship with season 5, and I know that Spike is not the main character. But I think his development is interesting and necessary. Although more subtle than Angel (he doesn't spend decades in isolation & self-loathing), he does start to feel the weight of his soul, the guilt of his actions. He and Angel reflect on their victims. He starts to wonder about a destiny that is his alone. The IDW comics continue Spike's journey. I've been underwhelmed about his story in the Dark Horse comics thus far (besides the bug ship, that is awesome!), but we shall see what season 9 brings us.

Really well said, couldn't agree more!

What would Spike be like if he hadn't been chipped in season 4? What would Spike be like if he had his chip removed before he got his soul, would he have continued on his current progression and sought it out, or would he have gone a different direction?

Good questions! Honestly if Spike had never been chipped, I don't know that anything would have ever changed for him. I mean something else that was equally groundbreaking in preventing him from living his old lifestyle, and thus having to try to understand others, would have had to have happened for any change to occur, IMO. I don't think he'd have realized that he felt anything for Buffy, and if he had he might have tried to erase his "shame" by trying to kill her.

If he'd had his chip removed before he got his soul? Ah, I so badly wanted at least one episode about this. I kept thinking we would get one...
Anyway. It all depends on when, I think. If it had happened after Buffy's return, after he'd helped the gang survive with some aid from Willow and the 'bot, after becoming Dawn's guardian, I am quite sure he wouldn't have harmed anyone. We see in "Smashed" that he is really really struggling with biting that girl, when he thinks he can. It's as clear as day to me that he was considering biting her out of contempt and anger, (which obviously doesn't mean that he's good but suggests that he wouldn't merely kill out of desire to kill), and wouldn't have gone through with it. The hesitation, the convincing himself. But I realize that's not nearly enough evidence to go on; in fact it's an easily debatable point.

My logic lies mostly in the fact that just because Spike couldn't inflict harm himself didn't mean he couldn't have organized a plot against the scoobies. What about when they were all but spitting at him and shoving him out the door, (albeit rightfully so), after "Crush?" When Buffy kept rejecting him? Toying with him, then telling him to move on, etc. He could have all but executed a plan to destroy them all, and it'd have been at his discretion whether or not to take credit. He could have had his cake and eaten it too: (get Xander killed by a blobbidy blob demon and still sleep with Buffy at night), or proudly claim responsibility for his deeds and give them all the finger.

So, all of this has to mean something. Quite a lot actually. I think if they'd taken the training wheels off he'd have still been able to ride. Wobbily, sure, but the potential would have been there.