The demon sex thread

[AnthonyCordova]

@AnthonyCordova

I think we are coming from opposite views of the Angel/us divide.

Let's adopt the fanon convenience that calls the demon Angelus and the soul Angel. If I am correct, you see them as entirely different entities.

I see them a both always present but the demon is repressed unless the soul is taken out.

Do we agree here?

Sure. I would even agree with what you said (both are always present in the same body) but when you say the demon is repressed I would say the demon is not just repressed but (from my observations of the shows) is utterly powerless to have any effect on the body or Angel. He's a passive observer while Angel is souled (that's how he remembers things that Angel does) but that's all. Either Angel has complete control of the body, or Angelus does. As far as who is captain of the body, so to speak, this is what I would say.

But yes, the quick summary is right enough. I do see them as two distinct entities...but after having fought for some recognition that they really are two different people first (after all this is where I land in the end on this debate), I would say that it's at this point that I don't mind taking seriously the position that argues that there is some connection between the two people after all...but then the question is to what degree.

 

[bespangeled]

Sure. I would even agree with what you said (both are always present in the same body) but when you say the demon is repressed I would say the demon is not just repressed but (from my observations of the shows) is utterly powerless to have any effect on the body or Angel. He's a passive observer while Angel is souled (that's how he remembers things that Angel does) but that's all. Either Angel has complete control of the body, or Angelus does. As far as who is captain of the body, so to speak, this is what I would say.

But yes, the quick summary is right enough. I do see them as two distinct entities...but after having fought for some recognition that they really are two different people first (after all this is where I land in the end on this debate), I would say that it's at this point that I don't mind taking seriously the position that argues that there is some connection between the two people after all...but then the question is to what degree.

That helps me understand why you don't see the past (Angelus) as having as much affect on Angel as I do.

A key difference is I see the soul struggling at times to leash the demon. The dreams that Angel had, and enjoyed, when Penn was killing in LA. I would say that they brought the demon to the fore because Angel alone would not enjoy those dreams. Most fascinating of all - for me - is the scene when Angel flicks the cigarette butt into flammable liquid to burn Dru and Darla. I love the expression on his face! And I love Darla asking saying that this is neither Angelus nor Angel "Who is that?"

 

[Ethan Reigns]

In BtVS "The Dark Age 2x08", Eyghon is forced into Angel and Angelus is not controlling anything outward, but fights internally with Eyghon. We see a lit if face contortions then the battle ends:

Buffy: You knew that if the demon was in trouble it was gonna jump into
the nearest dead person.

Angel: I put it in danger.

Willow: And it jumped. (stands up)

Angel: (gets up) I've had a demon inside me for a couple hundred
years... (exhales) just waitin' for a good fight.

Buffy: Winner and still champion.

It appears that Angel is not totally out of touch with Angelus. Angelus was not in the driver's seat, but he was still fighting. Angel managed to use Angelus for his own purposes this time.

 

[thetopher]

Sorry - but that line is so frequently added to that it's often no remembered correctly:

ILLYRIA
You'll have proof soon enough. A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them.

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

He trails off before he adds anything, leaving the clause open. Could be that one time - but that is fanon 😉

Could be any time or amount - that one million time when he wanted to 'play' - that one decade or so - that one week in the Riviera with champagne, roses and a hot tub.

As for homophobic - I agree that no one is trying to be, or is.

Y'see this is where you lose me. 😉

I'm not really focusing on the 'one' part, more the 'except' part, as in exception. A rare occurance that really didn't alter their relationship from what we've seen.
I could except a night of passion/experimentation, a long weekend, maybe even a month, but anything over that, going by what we've seen of the interconnected relationships of the Fanged Four, streatched credulity just a little. 🙂

Remember that for the most part these two only had 20 years together, Spike was mainly focused on his new reltionship with Dru, his sire, and Angelus was more concerned with maintaining his alpha male status, and showing Darla a good time.

And, as I 've said, 'Spangelus' doesn't particularly interest me, I don't find Angelus particularly fascinating as a character, just as a bad guy to hate on.

Spike and Angel in S5 of 'Angel' is where the real interest lies, the snipping, the humour, the learning to respect each other.
That's a 'ship I can get behind (so to speak. 😛)

 

[bespangeled]

Y'see this is where you lose me. 😉

I'm not really focusing on the 'one' part, more the 'except' part, as in exception. A rare occurance that really didn't alter their relationship from what we've seen.
I could except a night of passion/experimentation, a long weekend, maybe even a month, but anything over that, going by what we've seen of the interconnected relationships of the Fanged Four, streatched credulity just a little. 🙂

Remember that for the most part these two only had 20 years together, Spike was mainly focused on his new reltionship with Dru, his sire, and Angelus was more concerned with maintaining his alpha male status, and showing Darla a good time.

And, as I 've said, 'Spangelus' doesn't particularly interest me, I don't find Angelus particularly fascinating as a character, just as a bad guy to hate on.

Spike and Angel in S5 of 'Angel' is where the real interest lies, the snipping, the humour, the learning to respect each other.
That's a 'ship I can get behind (so to speak. 😛)

I also kinda doubt that Spike would use the term intimate for shagging. (Harmony and me were intimate, yeah.....nah....Harmony and me were shagging.)

I think William/Spike and Angelus shagged like bunnies, that it was a regular free-for-all amongst all of them. Angel and Spike...not so much. But keep in mind that the first few minutes they were alone in season 5, Spike called Angel 'beefcake'.

Angelus was an alpha male and a sadistic bastard. We saw how he was when he met William, who seemed to be of the impression that this was a new gentlemens' club. 🙄

Angelus wanted an acolyte - and Spike refused his offer of the bride's blood, and took off after Dru. Angelus lowered the boom - let William know he was at the bottom of the pile and that merde flows downhill. I can't believe that over a 20 year period Angelus wouldn't have used sex as one more way to dominate. We know he did it with Dru, and hurt her as wall. I don't believe young William went willingly to Angelus's bed - at least the first few times. But what better way to show him where he stood (metaphorically speaking).

I think it's in the way we see demons. You seem to see them as more given to niceties than I do. I see Angelus using the same mind-farking sadistic crap on Dru and on William. He did it to Penn, and Penn turned out to be the perfect, boring follower. Spike was mercurial enough to keep his interest, which is why he wasn't dust. Dru loved it. Frankly, I assume Darla and Spike also got it on. These are demons - I can't see each couple having separate bedrooms, a pair of heterosexual couples.

I agree on season 5, and I know we both see Spike bringing a whole lot of baggage.

 

[Yosso]

I think that at least pert of the whole vampire/sexual orientation issue depends on just how much of the human's personality we believe is retained after the human is turned turned, and how much the demon controls the body. Is it some sort of symbiotic relationship, or is the human body nothing more than a vessel used by a demon, allowing it to function in our plane of existence? Also, do the human values and personality traits remain as time goes by, or does the vampire demon gradually take more and more of its human host body

I can't remember ever seeing an example of a gay or bisexual vampire on either of Joss' shows, so I don't think that we can do much more than speculate on the matter. Spike's statement, "Except for that one time..." is the closest that we come, and we have no idea whether that was a night of toe curling, teeth gnashing, unforgettable passion, rape, or something in between, so it's hard to make a conclusive judgement based only on those 5 words.

The writers definitely altered their thinking in regards to the relationship between the human and the vampire demon as the show goes on, and I tend to go with the view suggested in later seasons that it's a spectrum. The vampire is essentially a remorseless, uninhibited version of the human.

In terms of sexuality I think there is a definite link between the human and the vampire, the vampire sharing the same sexuality as the human but just more willing to take more risks and explore - so they're more experimental.

From the show's portrayal, I'd say the Fanged Four are all generally heterosexual for the most part but not held back by any societal taboos and will dabble in homosexuality more openly and frequently.