The Difference Between Angel and Spike

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
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I'm going to propose this topic for discussion, then run and hide while others consider it.

It has been pointed out quite often that Spike is somehow inferior in character after he regains his soul because he doesn't seem to regret his past sins and crimes the way that Angel does. But, has anyone thought that this isn't really a fair comparison, considering the fact that we are comparing Spike, with a brand new, shiny soul that he is still just getting used to, to Angel, who has lived with and developed his soul for over a century? Is this really a fair comparison?

Angel, with a soul, was still staying with Darla, Spike, and Dru at the time of the Boxer Rebellion in China, where Spike killed his first Slayer. If Angel felt any real guilt at that time, it didn't seem as though he was going out of his way to try and atone for it. That came over a century later, after he saw and became infatuated with Buffy, and was recruited to help her in her fight.

So, is it really fair to try and compare the two vampires' reactions to having their souls returned under those circumstances? Can we really say that, 100 years in the future, Spike won't be working just as hard to attempt to atone for the things that he did before reacquiring his soul?

That's the topic, if anyone is interested. I'll be over yonder behind that tree, watching from a safe distance.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
[No message]
S
slayer6
Angel still killed after getting soulled he just killed criminals
I don't really know what you're referring to. Spike interprets his history slightly differently than Angel, but in S7, and especially S5 of AtS, he clearly feels guilt for the actions of the demon in him without a soul. He's certainly not just cool with it.
 
It never occurred to me that Angel had a soul during the boxer rebellio flashback they show, I always thought he went off on his own after Darla got all pissy when he wouldn't kill the kid.

For me though I don't think any less of Spike because of how he reacted to having a soul, I just liked Angel in general more.
 
They did react differently after getting their souls back. I think Angel suffered more and continued to hang about with Darla, Drusilla and Spike post-regaining his soul for a bit, because he was a bigger, evil badass. He was all drunken and rascally as a human and then full psycho as a vampire. Spike was mostly (or at least some of the time) all talk wasn't he? As a human Spike/William was a poetry writing wet blanket type. Don't get me wrong, I love them both, but Angel was the more evil and, therefore, suffered more when he got his soul back.
Right, now I'm scared too.
I'm off to hide in a broom closet.
 
L
LindsayH
[No message]
I think Angel and Spike went through similar emotions but reacted differently and handled their situations differently but ultimately, they both had to learn the same lesson; that there is no redemption for them.

Both vampires are overcome with guilt in the early days of having a soul. There is a scene in Sanctuary where Darla comes home to find Angel blathering in the corner about the hundreds of faces he can still see. He is on the verge of going insane, frightening her with his words. She finally realises he has a soul and throws him out of the house in disgust. This scene is a nice parallel to Buffy discovering Spike in the church in Beaneath You, babbling about forgiveness and her realisation that he has his soul back (Oh, hey, GIF idea!) In both instances the two vampires are almost on the brink of insanity, having been slammed with guilt for hundreds of years of evil.

It takes Angel longer to break through the insanity than it does Spike; Angel wanders for years unable to cope with the guilt but not because he is weaker than Spike but because he is utterly alone. He has no one in his corner, he doesn't belong to either world. He resents the guilt he carries and the daily struggle to curb his darker impulses; he craves the emptiness of evil, so, in one of his lowest moments, he returns to Darla to try to shake the guilt, to pretend that he is something other than what he is.

Spike, on the other hand, has Buffy with him from very early on. He has someone willing to monitor him, to help him, to believe in him. However, this doesn't change the guilt he feels. I think it is a big misconception that Spike doesn't feel guilt. He does but his way of dealing with it is to assume self-righteousness; to believe that he will earn redemption, to pretend that he is absolved. He is particularly harsh when he appears to show no remorse for killing Wood's mother but there is a deeper reasoning; by using the "I was a vampire, she was the Slayer" line (which, while true, doesn't change the fact that Wood grew up without a mother because of Spike) he can alleviate his own guilt. We see later in Damage that Spike does feel remorse when Dana confronts him with Nikki's memories, saying "I have to get home to my Robin." But in the early days, much like Angel, Spike seeks to escape his guilt rather than deal with it.

This is why I think it was vitally important for Spike to move to L.A. and join Team Angel. The Scoobies live in a very black-and-white world; redemption is easily earned and souls make a difference. Team Angel live in an extremely grey world, a world where there is no redemption; you fight the good fight because it's the right thing to do. It took Angel a long time to learn that lesson but that's what his entire arc was about. We got to watch Angel go from a rat-eating, self-loathing and self-involved loner to a strong, ridiculously good and selfless man. Spike needed to learn the same lesson and his arc on AtS is one of my favourite character arcs because of how much he grows. He goes from self-righteous indignation with no visible signs of remorse, to a genuinely good man who is the first to put up his hand for a fight that will win him no glory.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
[No message]
S
slayer6
[No message]
You're right! Spike might not always be inferior to Angel. Let's all meet back here in 100 years so we can compare them properly.
 
Kean
Kean
LOL
Within ONE year of regaining his soul, Spike had sacrificed his own life TWICE; once to save the WORLD ("Chosen,") and once to save Fred's life, ("Hell Bound," in which he risked an impending eternity in hell to save her.)

No comparison, indeed. 🙂

Though in Angel's defense, as Effy pointed out, he is utterly alone (even if, initially, physically surrounded by the gang) upon receiving his soul. He doesn't have a fight, a mission, an inspiration--not until Buffy. Spike has this from the very beginning. And by golly if he doesn't get right to work, redeeming himself, self-righteous though he may be in the beginning of ATS season 5 (though this is due more to the writers' need to have him play foil to Angel than anything else).
 
S
slayer6
[No message]
To me, it doesn't matter how long they've had their soul. The only thing that mattered to their change was Buffy, she was the catalyst for both.

The difference for me is one was able to see what was best for the person they loved, to not trap her in a life without living, while the other didn't care for anyone past themselves.

The other main difference is one was more human as a vampire, and carried over a personality to his human side, making him more responsible for his actions.

Also one was blond and the other was strong enough to carry his own series...


[HASHTAG]#Boom[/HASHTAG]!
 
S
slayer6
Spike hating at it's finest
NeonNightLight
NeonNightLight
[No message]
Black Eye Guy said:
The difference for me is one was able to see what was best for the person they loved, to not trap her in a life without living, while the other didn't care for anyone past themselves.



Also one was blond and the other was strong enough to carry his own series...
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I wasn't going to participate in this discussion, but here you are, getting on my last nerve again.

First off, to say that Angel didn't care for anyone beyond himself is cruel, uncaring, and, most of all, inaccurate. He loved Connor, he adored Cordy, and he really had the hots for Nina. So much for the allegation of "not caring for anyone beyond himself."

And as for being "strong enough to carry his own series," the fact that the Network refused to renew "Angel" for Season 5 unless Spike joined the cast, and then that even a character as popular and dynamic as he was, wasn't enough to pull Angel and his show out of the pit that it had sunk into, isn't NECESSARILY an indication that Angel couldn't carry his own show without Cordy there to bolster the ratings. There's a chance that the Powers That Be WB were just tired of carrying a show about a semi-Neanderthal vampire with bad hair.

Honestly, man, I thought that you LIKED Angel.
 
white avenger said:
I wasn't going to participate in this discussion, but here you are, getting on my last nerve again.

First off, to say that Angel didn't care for anyone beyond himself is cruel, uncaring, and, most of all, inaccurate. He loved Connor, he adored Cordy, and he really had the hots for Nina. So much for the allegation of "not caring for anyone beyond himself."

And as for being "strong enough to carry his own series," the fact that the Network refused to renew "Angel" for Season 5 unless Spike joined the cast, and then that even a character as popular and dynamic as he was, wasn't enough to pull Angel and his show out of the pit that it had sunk into, isn't NECESSARILY an indication that Angel couldn't carry his own show without Cordy there to bolster the ratings. There's a chance that the Powers That Be WB were just tired of carrying a show about a semi-Neanderthal vampire with bad hair.

Honestly, man, I thought that you LIKED Angel.
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I'm confused, and I have no back story as far as the "getting on my last nerve" part, but I thought he meant Angel when talking about how one was able to not trap Buffy in a life without living, not Spike....?
I mean it's obvious Angel is able to be really selfless all throughout Buffy AND Angel... Afterall, that's why he left Buffy in season 3 (at least according to the story line)

Perhaps I am just not reading and understanding these posts correctly...
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
WA is a jokester
LindsayH said:
I'm confused, and I have no back story as far as the "getting on my last nerve" part, but I thought he meant Angel when talking about how one was able to not trap Buffy in a life without living, not Spike....?
I mean it's obvious Angel is able to be really selfless all throughout Buffy AND Angel... Afterall, that's why he left Buffy in season 3 (at least according to the story line)

Perhaps I am just not reading and understanding these posts correctly...
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Hang around, friend. All will be revealed.
 
" [MENTION=12495]slayer6[/MENTION] disagrees: Spike hating at it's finest"

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but how is anything I said hating, please point out something I said that wasn't based in fact?

Black Eye Guy said:
To me, it doesn't matter how long they've had their soul. The only thing that mattered to their change was Buffy, she was the catalyst for both.
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100% True

The difference for me is one was able to see what was best for the person they loved, to not trap her in a life without living, while the other didn't care for anyone past themselves.
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Being with a vampire, Any vampire, gives that person a crappy life, with no kids and not being able to go out in the day. It was one of Angels reasons for leaving, but Spike would rather stay with her and not give her the option of those things.

The other main difference is one was more human as a vampire, and carried over a personality to his human side, making him more responsible for his actions.
Click to expand...
This is true, Spike is more human as a vampire, confirmed in the show and by the writers.

Also one was blond and the other was strong enough to carry his own series...
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Angle has his own show, Spike doesn't. Spikes comic was the lowest selling of the comic series (vs Buffy/Angel and Faith/Willow)
 
Well first of all how long did it take Angel to decide leaving Buffy was for the best? Spike was just starting to have the possibility of a real relationship with her. Secondly Angel clearly wants her back at the end of s7 so his nobility didn't last all that long. Also S5 of Angel wouldn't have even been picked up if they didn't bring on Spike. I personally don't like Spike any more than I like Angel. I just prefer the Spike and Buffy arc better. And the blonde hair thing how was that even pertinent to the point you were trying to make? sounds like hating to me.
 
slayer6 said:
Well first of all how long did it take Angel to decide leaving Buffy was for the best? Spike was just starting to have the possibility of a real relationship with her. Secondly Angel clearly wants her back at the end of s7 so his nobility didn't last all that long. Also S5 of Angel wouldn't have even been picked up if they didn't bring on Spike. I personally don't like Spike any more than I like Angel. I just prefer the Spike and Buffy arc better. And the blonde hair thing how was that even pertinent to the point you were trying to make? sounds like hating to me.
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By the time Angel "clearly" wants her back he had realized that there would be no "normal" relationship for Buffy, that he had left her and she had just ended up in the arms of some of vamp so why not try and get her back? He probably figured that if she is gonna be with a vamp anyways it might as well be him.
 
iShower4free said:
By the time Angel "clearly" wants her back he had realized that there would be no "normal" relationship for Buffy, that he had left her and she had just ended up in the arms of some of vamp so why not try and get her back? He probably figured that if she is gonna be with a vamp anyways it might as well be him.
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This is true.

It's also worth noting that when Angel returns to Sunnydale in S7, he's been through an unbelievable string of trials and tribulations very recently. Everything that occurred with Cordelia, Connor and Jasmine? It's hardly a wonder why he wanted to see Buffy again.
 
My point is that Angel comes and wants her back trials and tribulations being the reason makes it selfish reasons for wanting her. Angel and Spike both want her despite what is best for her. Angel left for a period of time and then he decides he wants her when he sees she is getting close with Spike. That sounds like pure jealousy to me. Neither one of them is completely noble when it comes to Buffy.
 
slayer6 said:
My point is that Angel comes and wants her back trials and tribulations being the reason makes it selfish reasons for wanting her. Angel and Spike both want her despite what is best for her. Angel left for a period of time and then he decides he wants her when he sees she is getting close with Spike. That sounds like pure jealousy to me. Neither one of them is completely noble when it comes to Buffy.
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I don't know if that's it. I mean, he's given the amulet by W&H, with instructions to take it to Sunnydale. Sure, that may be a pretext to see her again, they do makeout right away after all, but I don't think makes it entirely selfish either. I don't really think either Angel or Spike, from S7 on, are overly selfish about Buffy. I mean, neither seeks her out in S5 of AtS until the very end, and that's only out of fear for her life.
 
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