The end of Beneath you

[ticonderouga]

I have always thought that one of James Marsters single best performances on Buffy came in the scene at the end of Beneath you. The end where he says "Can we rest now? Buffy, can we rest?" was nearly heartbreaking. Even if you don't particularly like Spike I think that this scene could make almost anyone feel for him, am I wrong?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

It's an incredible scene, featuring a brilliant actor and one of the best characters in history! He really shines here. And I would be inclined to agree that even those who dislike Spike might feel something for him in this scene, but I've read some comments lately that make me think maybe not, lol!
Bah, who cares. It's a fine moment. Can't take that away, for sure!

 

[Marisa]

It was amazing. I feel it is one of the best scenes of Buffy. James delivered in a big way.

 

[spikecakes]

Brilliant scene. I wish James would do more scenes like that now, he's actually capable, I don't think he realises.

 

[zobothehobo]

One of my favorite scenes in the whole show. I watch it alone all the time. It's done so fantastically. James blows me away. Every time I watch it, I'm still amazed and I've seen it a ton of times.

 

[Taaroko]

Personally, I find that scene to be disturbingly weird. It feels like a badly failed attempt to capture the same sort of poignancy of the bit towards the end of "Beauty and the Beasts" when Angel says Buffy's name and falls to his knees and weeps and holds onto her for dear life. Most of what Spike says to Buffy is creepy and horrifying and when he goes and drapes himself on the cross, all I can think about is why on earth would any vampire, even an insane-from-being-freshly-ensouled one, do that on purpose? Random unnecessary self-mutilation accompanied by creepy madman babbling does not make me feel sympathetic, it makes me edge away from the screen. Especially when I don't find the insanity entirely convincing. It's disturbing and pointless and for the love of all things holy why is he just standing there while he accumulates second degree burns (at minimum) on such a large area of his body?! Fast forward a few episodes to when he's fully lucid, please. I still don't like him much then, but at least he isn't constantly freaking me out anymore.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

In fact, this is one of my all-time favorite scenes in the series, and I agree, it's absolutely heartbreaking.

Poor Spikey.

---------- Post added at 07:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

Most of what Spike says to Buffy is creepy and horrifying and when he goes and drapes himself on the cross, all I can think about is why on earth would any vampire, even an insane-from-being-freshly-ensouled one, do that on purpose?

Interesting.

Spike draps himself on the cross to punish himself. Spike has a high threshold for pain, and in order to really feel it, he had to do something drastic. His emotional pain was so great - Buffy not loving him, the guilt from his past victims -, I imagine the only thing Spike knew to do was mask it with physical pain.

Personally, I think the scene is very affecting.

---------- Post added at 07:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 AM ----------

One of my favorite scenes in the whole show. I watch it alone all the time. It's done so fantastically. James blows me away. Every time I watch it, I'm still amazed and I've seen it a ton of times.

Me, too.

Have you read the shooting script? The stage directions are really interesting.

 

[Tammy]

Have you read the shooting script? The stage directions are really interesting.

Have you got a link for this please?

 

[zobothehobo]

Personally, I find that scene to be disturbingly weird. It feels like a badly failed attempt to capture the same sort of poignancy of the bit towards the end of "Beauty and the Beasts" when Angel says Buffy's name and falls to his knees and weeps and holds onto her for dear life. Most of what Spike says to Buffy is creepy and horrifying and when he goes and drapes himself on the cross, all I can think about is why on earth would any vampire, even an insane-from-being-freshly-ensouled one, do that on purpose? Random unnecessary self-mutilation accompanied by creepy madman babbling does not make me feel sympathetic, it makes me edge away from the screen. Especially when I don't find the insanity entirely convincing. It's disturbing and pointless and for the love of all things holy why is he just standing there while he accumulates second degree burns (at minimum) on such a large area of his body?! Fast forward a few episodes to when he's fully lucid, please. I still don't like him much then, but at least he isn't constantly freaking me out anymore.

as Joan the Vampire Slayer says below me, Spike drapes himself over the cross to punish himself. He's also got cuts all over his body because he tried to cut it out. It's not pointless self mutilation, It's because he feels like it's the least he can do to himself after all of the horrible things he did.

And yes, the dialog in that scene is creepy and horrifying. That's the point. Spike is talking about what he did when he was soulless, who he was. He's hating himself. He's insane, too... and speaking in cryptic talk. So yes, it's creepy and horrifying... but that's the point.

But what really struck me about your post is that you don't find the insanity entirely convincing. I'll admit, my initial reaction was "Oh yeah, one of the board's "mega-bangels" insulting James' acting.. what a surprise." And then I was like "but some of these insults I can sorta kinda get... this one... not at all." So this isn't an attack, more of an inquiry. What is it that makes the insanity not believable to you?

Me, too.

Have you read the shooting script? The stage directions are really interesting.

I have. They are... as are the changes made to the scene.

Have you got a link for this please?

http://buffyworld.com/ You can find the shooting script there. Click on season 7, Beneath You and then shooting script. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

I'll admit, my initial reaction was "Oh yeah, one of the board's "mega-bangels" insulting James' acting.. what a surprise." And then I was like "but some of these insults I can sorta kinda get... this one... not at all."

Um...ouch? 😛 This is often, honestly, why I don't always post what I think and why I really admire Taarako and their post in here. I've always felt that if you say don't like James or don't think he's a great actor (which I really don't) then your [general] opinion will be reduced to nothing but biased because you're a Bangel fan.

Like I said in the comment on Taarako's post, I also find it a very strange scene, one that I think is supposed to have more resonance than it actually does. I felt that it was laid on really thick and overdone which also results in me edging away. I think its the combination of the words and actions together; the words alone, yup, heartbreaking, but with the cross and the self harm? James' acting in it, I would say is commendable, especially as I don't think he's that great, and he did well with what he was directed to do but the scene as a whole doesn't provoke a huge amount of sympathy from me; bias or no bias 😛

 

[Taaroko]

But what really struck me about your post is that you don't find the insanity entirely convincing. I'll admit, my initial reaction was "Oh yeah, one of the board's "mega-bangels" insulting James' acting.. what a surprise." And then I was like "but some of these insults I can sorta kinda get... this one... not at all." So this isn't an attack, more of an inquiry. What is it that makes the insanity not believable to you?

I don't have a problem with James's acting. I never have. I think he's an excellent actor. But the way he portrays insanity just doesn't resonate with me. It's mainly because of the writing. He spends the bulk of the episode being perfectly lucid (and unnecessarily mean) and his snark remains unimpaired even after the breakdown, so I have trouble believing that he's actually crazy. It all just seems really weird to me.

 

[zobothehobo]

Um...ouch? 😛 This is often, honestly, why I don't always post what I think and why I really admire Taarako and their post in here. I've always felt that if you say don't like James or don't think he's a great actor (which I really don't) then your [general] opinion will be reduced to nothing but biased because you're a Bangel fan.

I should clarify... it's my super bias as such a Spike/Spuffy/James fan that makes me say/think that. And I rarely ever say something about it.

Like I said in the comment on Taarako's post, I also find it a very strange scene, one that I think is supposed to have more resonance than it actually does. I felt that it was laid on really thick and overdone which also results in me edging away. I think its the combination of the words and actions together; the words alone, yup, heartbreaking, but with the cross and the self harm? James' acting in it, I would say is commendable, especially as I don't think he's that great, and he did well with what he was directed to do but the scene as a whole doesn't provoke a huge amount of sympathy from me; bias or no bias 😛

I guess I get this... kinda sorta but I do. And I do respect your opinion.

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 PM ----------

I don't have a problem with James's acting. I never have. I think he's an excellent actor. But the way he portrays insanity just doesn't resonate with me. It's mainly because of the writing. He spends the bulk of the episode being perfectly lucid (and unnecessarily mean) and his snark remains unimpaired even after the breakdown, so I have trouble believing that he's actually crazy. It all just seems really weird to me.

He's not being unnecessarily mean, he's trying to figure out how to live with himself. Angel did a similar thing when he pretended to be soulless and went with the fanged four to the Boxer Rebellion. He's adjusting to caring about all of the horrible things he did while soulless. He has a reason for this, it's not unnecessary and random.

So it's the fact he was able to be lucid the entire episode up to the point he hurt someone again? I can sorta get that. I still think it works, but I can understand now how you don't.

 

[Flannen]

I should clarify... it's my super bias as such a Spike/Spuffy/James fan that makes me say/think that. And I rarely ever say something about it.

Lol, fair enough. We all have a bias, I admit mine all the time - makes me feel better about having them! Mine probably holds me back from watching this scene as openly as I could 🙂

 

[Chosen Enemy]

The scene is so beautiful and painful at the same time. Def one of the best in the series. I really really feel sorry for Spike. And I think people critic James' acting because maybe we're not really used seeing him in this kind of scene. Spike was not very Spike in it. Or maybe it's James who's not used to this kind of acting. Anyway, I think he was great in this scene. He delivered well the heartbreaking situation, made me feel sympathy for Spike. I felt Spike's pain. His struggle, his confussion. It was very very intense.

 

[KellGreen]

This ep is actually, TO ME, one of the best performances i have ever seen, anywhere. James gets the full range in this: tyring to be lucid and pretend he's normal (but is obviously more quiet and subdued than his character usually is), to the all-out angry, a-hole bravado scene at the Bronze trying to hide his soul from Anya and pretend to Buffy that he hasn't changed, to the crazy scene after impaling the sluggoth demon/guy (the way he plays it here with the "there's no need to SHOOOUUT!" part I adore), then to the chapel scene, where he is both crazy and extremely vulnerable. I find the writing and his acting to be brilliant here (along with SMG's acting, too).

I interpreted the cross as both punishment, along the lines of, like, old-school religious self-flaggelation, and his desire to reconnect with "God." Like, he is still wanting to be a man, but by virtue of still being a vampire, is still unnacceptable to God, and an abomination.

Did i mention i'm in love with his talent here? I feel his vulnerability when he pulls away from Buffy when she goes to touch him, and the look he has here.

But, maybe i'm just dead inside and need an extremely intense, over-the-top kind of performance to really hit me.😛 I found it just right, and it does always make me cry.

And, wow, a lot of changes to the final product from that link...

 

[Tome]

I agree about that scene, it was great acting and I loved it. It was a lil complex to understand at first, tho. I'm still not a hundred percent sure what Spike meant about ''And now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did, everyone I - and him. And it. The other... the thing... beneath... beneath you. It's here, too. Everybody... they all just tell me go. Go... to hell.''...

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I agree about that scene, it was great acting and I loved it. It was a lil complex to understand at first, tho. I'm still not a hundred percent sure what Spike meant about ''And now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did, everyone I - and him. And it. The other... the thing... beneath... beneath you. It's here, too. Everybody... they all just tell me go. Go... to hell.''...

Well, I'm guessing it could be God, or The First.

 

[zobothehobo]

I agree about that scene, it was great acting and I loved it. It was a lil complex to understand at first, tho. I'm still not a hundred percent sure what Spike meant about ''And now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did, everyone I - and him. And it. The other... the thing... beneath... beneath you. It's here, too. Everybody... they all just tell me go. Go... to hell.''...

"It" is The First, I believe... and I've seen two interpretations of who "him" is that I like. One is that "him" is God. The other is that "him" his soulless Spike. I think judging by the shooting script, "him" is supposed to be God, but I kinda like the idea of it being soulless Spike.

Basically what he's saying here is that he's replaying everything he did as a soulless being. And he's remembering everything and everyone he's ever come into contact with in his whole existence. And he feels terrible. All the voices are telling him to go to hell. That's where he belongs.