The Faith and Willow hypocrisy

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
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Black Thorn
This always kind of bothered me. Faith accidentally kills a guy which sends her down her self destructive path. This was the trigger for her. Willow straight up tortured and murdered a guy. Yes, he killed her girlfriend, it is understandable but slightly different to Faith's situation. Willow had unconditional support through everything and still went ahead and killed Warren. Now put down the pitchforks, I'm not ragging on Willow, I just think her murdering Warren didn't have many consequences for her.

It seems that for the rest of her life Faith is labeled as a murderer because she faced up to what she did, but Willow never faces punishment or even acknowledges it in S7.

Actually, it would have been very cool to have a scene between Faith and Willow in S7 talking about what Willow done. Considering their past, and how Willow ended up, she's a lot more in common with Faith than Buffy.
 
It seems that for the rest of her life Faith is labeled as a murderer because she faced up to what she did, but Willow never faces punishment or even acknowledges it in S7.
Why does everybody keep forgetting the Vulcan, oops, the Volcanologist Faith murdered? I'm sad for him.🙁

And yeah, Warren didn't die in S7, so didn't Rack. It's Buffy who killed Warren later. They managed to thoroughly whitewash Willow and I have no strong objection on that.😎
 
I think the main difference is their age and how mature they were.... Faith screws up early, they're still black/white, fighting the good fight, you know? Probably, it she had more support, she wouldn't have turned so bad. But that's just it, when Willow went bad it was far gone in the story, they were more used to the idea of the gray, they were bffs for years, so yes... she got all the support she needed.
 
Xin Rong
Xin Rong
Definitely, they're much more idealistic early on
Just like how Buffy was a affected by the sexual assault, how Willow dealt with her murder-spree and addiction to magic it all took place off screen so that the audience was robbed of seeing true character development and growth and get '6 months ago I was this and now I'm this' before and after crap.

At least on Angel you actually got to witness it from Wesly. The two lead characters (who are female) on Buffy, a show about girl power, were robbed of the opportunity to show strength, perseverance and dealing emotionally with problems as it all happened off screen in between seasons. That to me is cheap and an easy way out of the drama and consequences that the show tried to establish. Hell, even Faith's redemption took place on another show entirely.
 
It all depends on the side. Willow was on the side of 'good' and Faith was on the side of 'bad', therefore a different view is taken.

I mean, take wars for example. You have a good side and a bad side and fatalities on both, but both the fatalities and perpetrators are seen differently depending on the side in which you're fighting, or what your beliefs are.

Heroes can be villains on the other side, and vice versa....
 
ChaseRules
ChaseRules
But they go after Faith while she was on the side of good & then when she goes evil say they knew she was evil all alone .
And Willow thought she had killed Waren knowing what she did & then went after his friends .
Personally I think Faith was self-destructive when she arrived in Sunnydale. She didn't try to fit in with the group, she was jealous and rebellious and difficult. (By the way, I love Faith as a character, but she was not a good kind sweet girl that some people like to paint her) Faith ws never anyones friend, she never had the self-esteem or confidence to be a friend.

Contrast this with Willow, who had been besties with Xander forever, and was the first real friend Buffy made in Sunnydale. They'd been a team for six years. So for me it just made perfect sense that Willow was supported, just as she had supported others over the years.
 
It's par for the course with the gang in the Dawnverse. Willow kills and tortures, Xander is the cause for people burning up, Dawn steals, Giles kills Ben, Buffy kills knights and not Spike/Dru/Harmony, Spike tries to kill/rape/deal in demon eggs, Andrew kills Jonathon and Anya goes demon again. Where are the consequences for any of them? The Scoobies and their hanger-on'ers are allowed to do whatever they want but if someone else does it they get on their moral high horse (like in S7 with Faith). Please by S7 the Scoobies were morally backrupt so this kind of stuff just made them look eye-rollingly hyprocritical. Scoobies? Pft. Muderers Anonymous is more like it.
 
Valid. Faith had a crappy upbringing and serious trust issues. Was way friendly when she got to Sunnydale but was taken for granted, ignored and then arrested by Wesley.

Willow had a nice middle-class upbringing and had a couple of really good friends, a couple of loving relationships, and then lost somebody, chose to go on a murder spree with magic as her Uzi and tried to end the world because 'everyone was in so much pain!'- sure the people she killed/tried to kill weren't nice, but neither was Finch.

And we see with Faith that the writers show us grappling with her dark side, her guilt and what she did, but with Willow its glossed over- we see her go 'black eyes' a few times and that's it. She's fine in 'Orpheus' and even jokes about flaying a guy a live.
Okay so it was retconned later so she didn't actually murder Warren (because Amy saved him) by- lets be honest- she 90% killed him, if that's even a thing. The lack of magic later just finished the job.
 
... and even jokes about flaying a guy a live.

To stay in perspective: Faith joked about her deeds too. So did Angel and Spike... and Wesley... and Buffy. That was not a special Willow trait. And the others made also puns about the evil stuff their friends had done. I saw it always as a sort of gallows humor to have a bit more comedy elements in the show. There are several occasions where the comedy is distracting from a basically dire situation.

That Willow never showed remorse for Warren's murder is comprehensible. Granted, she's the delinquent but she's also Warren's victim. How can you feel bad about the death of your lover's murderer? It might not be right but it's totally human and doesn't speak of an incapability to regret. There was deep remorse and she was terrified from her later behaviour. She expected that Giles would kill her in England, and had accepted it. But I agree that the whole Willow arc was badly handled in S07, and not only her arc but... nearly everything? 😀 Yay, for more Willow/Faith screen-time, though.

Faith had a crappy upbringing and serious trust issues. Was way friendly when she got to Sunnydale but was taken for granted, ignored and then arrested by Wesley.

I totally agree. Though I'd rather put the blame on Giles, Wesley and the Council. Buffy, Xander and Willow were teenagers. Naturally not known for mature social skills. And it's not like they didn't make any attempt to include Faith at all.

I do see Faith's crimes from a different perspective. For one, I can't see that Faith murdered Finch. It was an accident and if the roles had been reversed, Buffy would be the one who had stabbed him. And technically was Professor Worth an assassination, not murder. She was following orders. - Since somebody brought up the war analogy. And it IS a war.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
Giles was a crap watcher when the council gave him Faith!
The difference is that Willow commit murder after loosing it because of Tara's death. Faith self-hatred freed what she had inside her soul - evil. She could have become an addict or alcoholic (like her father), she could have become a customer of vampire biting, she could have given up her calling and live a carefree life committing petty crimes - instead, she killed, tortured, stolen a body (!), deceived and joined someone truly Evil whose intentions was becoming a pure demon. Compare Faith to self-hatred Buffy, and we see a big difference, too.

They'd been a team for six years. So for me it just made perfect sense that Willow was supported, just as she had supported others over the years.

Exactly. Another big difference. Fans love Faith; the Scoobies, don't.
 
100% there's a huge hypocrisy in the situations. No matter how you spin it, taken the Scoobies' past (especially Willow's, but also others), they have no reason not to forgive Faith. *tries not to bring up Fuffy, oh screw it...* I think a lot of it had to do with Buffy's feelings towards Faith, and the others following Buffy. The connection was mainly between Faith and Buffy, and since Buffy had such an issue with what had happened with Faith (cause of you know, slayer feelings), I think the rest of the gang just followed suit. With Willow, she had more of a background with all of their friends. So essentially, Faith got the short stick because she wasn't officially in the group.
 
I think the one of the main problems I have with it is the way they dealt with Willow in season 7. In The Killer in Me, the only episode to really talk about Warren, the main emotional thrust is about Willow feeling like she is betraying Tara with her relationship with Kennedy. I understand that Willow appearing as Warren was meant to show her guilt, but there wasn't anything more than the glamour to tell the audience how she feels, and that's a bit of a cheat.

And @Buffy Summers reminded me of a scene in season 8 that shows similar behaviour.

I hate Buffy's reaction to Faith and when she calls Giles and screams at him about her. Buffy & Willow are such mean girls when it comes to Faith. Meanwhile Buffy's robbing banks, and Willow's only sorry that she brought Buffy back because it meant Tara died!
 
It seems that for the rest of her life Faith is labeled as a murderer because she faced up to what she did, but Willow never faces punishment or even acknowledges it in S7.

Concerning punishment, any of them had enough, and support, Willow had from her long time friends.

Labelled as a murder, I don't think any of the Scoobies do that anymore. On S7, they still had some grudge, because it was the first time they saw Faith after all she did to them: Buffy always with her arms crossed when talking to her (a sign of defensiveness), Dawn being quiet rude, Giles cold. Buffy wasn't sure about Faith's change - she didn't know if she was there to help or if she was that old carefree person who wanted to take what was hers and mess things up - that's the mixed signals she felt from Faith (of course, a line written to bait some fans... ). In the end, Buffy saw the real new Faith, and they were OK.

In S8, Buffy and Faith met again, in a very stressful situation, which made Buffy react as she did - it's human nature. Giles, on the other hand, was very manipulative, but the man betrayed his Slayer, so...

In S10, Buffy and the Scoobies met again, and Faith was welcomed and treated with respect. There aren't bad feelings anymore; it's just that Faith isn't part of the gang,
she has her own gang now.
 
I understand that Willow appearing as Warren was meant to show her guilt, but there wasn't anything more than the glamour to tell the audience how she feels, and that's a bit of a cheat.

I always interpreted it the complete opposite way. It's essentially meant to portray her lack of guilt over Warren, like you said, it was more about Tara. She felt like she killed the last memories she had of Tara and therefore turned into her real killer. When she says she feels guilty, it comes off as completely dishonest. In my opinion, Willow seeked absolutely no redemption concerning Warren (which I'm okay with, cause I think Warren deserved it), but when putting this in comparison with what Faith did to redeem herself, Faith is miles ahead of Willow when it comes to doing the right thing concerning the murder they did.
 
I think there are a lot of reasons why they were treated differently:

1) Faith was a "villain" and Willow was a "hero". In season 3 fans weren't supposed to love Faith (certainly not as much as they did). She was supposed to turn evil, screw up Buffy's life, and then die. Eventually she was so popular that they gave her a redemption arc. We were always supposed to love Willow (whether people do or not depends.)

2) Willow had been best friends with the scoobies for six years, whereas Faith had only known them for less than a year.

3) Timing. Season 3 versus season 6 is a world of difference. They probably would have forgiven Faith in a heartbeat if she had killed in 6 or 7. I enjoy the moral grayness of the later seasons, but sometimes it is too over the top. They even have to joke about how practically all the scoobies are murderers in season 7.

4) The circumstances and the characters' behavior were different. Willow killed two people, both of whom were evil (or evilish in Rack's case..) and tried to kill her friends. The difference is that she was filled with grief at Tara's death, and had too much black magic in her system. The scoobies felt that they could forgive her for that. I don't condemn Faith for Finch's death, but after that she killed a human professor and tortured and maimed countless other people (that girl in the hospital, Wesley, a lot of people in LA, etc.) Faith's evil phase was a lot longer than Willow's, and so showed no remorse until the very end.

5) Buffy took Faith's behavior very personally. She was very hurt by Faith's betrayal, and angry over Faith trying to kill Angel and sleeping with Riley. Just goes to show that they have very strong feelings for each other, one way or another.

Ultimately I can understand why they were treated differently, but I still don't think it's entirely fair. Faith should have been treated better in season 7. And yes, Faith and Willow definitely should have had an important scene together. I find it odd that the writers didn't make the connection there.
 
The ironic thing about Faith's character is that she's the only one in the entire Buffyverse who ever managed to get off with more than expressed feelings of regret and a promise, not always kept, that they would try and do better in the future. Willow killed Warren, Xander was responsible for everything that the Gentlemen caused, Giles killed Ben, and we can't even begin to imagine how much death, pain, and mental anguish Anya caused over the centuries that she was a vengeance demon. At least Spike and Angel could excuse what they did as vampires by saying that they were soulless monsters at the time, but that didn't stop either of them from doing the same thing, souls fully in place, if they decided that it needed doing.

Faith, at least, turned herself in to the proper authorities, and seemed perfectly content and willing to serve out the entirety of her jail sentence, if Angelus hadn't come back. Maybe the day would have come when she got fed up with prison life and escaped, regardless of anything happening to Angel, Buffy, or the supernatural world in general, but we don't know that, and I, at least, am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

And, let's not forget, Faith killed Finch by accident, in the commission of what was undoubtedly her duty, with no thought of revenge or malice. If it hadn't been for the poor way that that incident had been handled, beginning with Buffy's, "Faith, you KILLED a MAN!" tirade, followed by Giles' poor handling of the situation, given what we later saw of his attitude concerning the taking of human life, and the almost certainly had encountered and made allowances for it in the past. That Watcher Policy might discourage killing, but certainly dealt with it and recognized the fact that it was inevitable, given the mission, seems almost a certainty. As for the volcanologist, he would still most likely have died, but some other of the Mayor's henchmen would have been the killer.

Xander intentionally, if stupidly, summoned the Gentlemen. Willow killed Warren, Andrew killed Jonathan, Giles Killed Ben, and Buffy killed probably a dozen Knights of Byzantium, and never received even a portion of the unending distrust that Faith has had to endure, ever since that tragic accident way back in Season 3.
 
Monkey Pants
Monkey Pants
Completely agree
To stay in perspective: Faith joked about her deeds too. So did Angel and Spike... and Wesley... and Buffy. That was not a special Willow trait. And the others made also puns about the evil stuff their friends had done. I saw it always as a sort of gallows humor to have a bit more comedy elements in the show. There are several occasions where the comedy is distracting from a basically dire situation.
That Willow never showed remorse for Warren's murder is comprehensible. Granted, she's the delinquent but she's also Warren's victim. How can you feel bad about the death of your lover's murderer? It might not be right but it's totally human and doesn't speak of an incapability to regret.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Willow is the hypocrite here- she's the only Scoobie that treats Faith with anything approaching a welcoming attitude in S7 precicely because Willow knows that she has crossed that line also.
Everyone else though? Screw that. 'I forgive this murderer but not that one' is kinda stupid, given the passaage of time that has taken place.

And yes, I agree that making light of your past crimes is 'a thing' that most characters do- I just think that Willow's struggle wasn't written that well. It was largely ignored.

I totally agree. Though I'd rather put the blame on Giles, Wesley and the Council. Buffy, Xander and Willow were teenagers. Naturally not known for mature social skills.

I agree here, I'll put the blame mostly on the Watchers. Buffy and Xander both tried, as did Angel.

I do see Faith's crimes from a different perspective. For one, I can't see that Faith murdered Finch.

It's unfortunate that the Scoobies do see it this way. Willow calls Faith a murderer straight off, so does Buffy.

And technically was Professor Worth an assassination, not murder. She was following orders.

Killing somebody just because somebody else tells you to is pretty low I think.
 
Faith, at least, turned herself in to the proper authorities, and seemed perfectly content and willing to serve out the entirety of her jail sentence, if Angelus hadn't come back. Maybe the day would have come when she got fed up with prison life and escaped, regardless of anything happening to Angel, Buffy, or the supernatural world in general, but we don't know that, and I, at least, am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

And yet it was only three years couped up in a jail she could escape from any time. That's nothing according to some.
And escaping only when needed and almost giving her life time and again, getting beaten, bit and mind-melded with one of the worst monsters in history- all to try and save Angel? Eh, who hasn't done that.
And then walking into another apocalypse (where she isn't exactly welcomed with open arms) and almost dying again? Pfft. Now she's just trying too had.

Still, she was the only character willing to accept punishment, and then got justly punished, and then went on to show a truly remarkable turn around.

Xander intentionally, if stupidly, summoned the Gentlemen.

😱
If this were true I think Xander would get way more crap flung his way.
But actually, just because Sweet wasn't as scary looking or as gothic, he still caused town-wide death and mayhem. So the comparison is an apt one.🙂
 
This always kind of bothered me. Faith accidentally kills a guy which sends her down her self destructive path. This was the trigger for her. Willow straight up tortured and murdered a guy. Yes, he killed her girlfriend, it is understandable but slightly different to Faith's situation. Willow had unconditional support through everything and still went ahead and killed Warren. Now put down the pitchforks, I'm not ragging on Willow, I just think her murdering Warren didn't have many consequences for her.

It seems that for the rest of her life Faith is labeled as a murderer because she faced up to what she did, but Willow never faces punishment or even acknowledges it in S7.

Actually, it would have been very cool to have a scene between Faith and Willow in S7 talking about what Willow done. Considering their past, and how Willow ended up, she's a lot more in common with Faith than Buffy.

I think Willow's consequences were just less immediate than Faith's. Plus, Faith was "chosen" unlike Willow. She has more responsibility as a chosen warrior and protector. The murder undermines what she was born to do. Willow faces consequences with the whole Kennedy kiss episode, but also later with skinless Warren and the unstable magic situations that arise. I think because season 7 was so apocalyptic it left a lot of unfinished personal business between characters. I do agree that Willow and Faith could have connected over there murdery guilt issues, but they don't really have much else in common.
 
Priceless
Priceless
Good point about Faith being 'chosen' unlike Willow, not thought of that before
To be clear, I'm not saying that Willow is the hypocrite here- she's the only Scoobie that treats Faith with anything approaching a welcoming attitude in S7 precisely because Willow knows that she has crossed that line also.

Right. Willow might not be Faith's bestest bud in Season 7, but she can at least see that the girl deserves a chance to make a fresh start. The hypocrisy comes from the difference in treatment and attitude that the two receive from everyone else in Season 7. As far as everyone else is concerned, Dark Willow was a totally different person, gone and never to return. Faith was still the murderer and the Rogue Slayer, no matter what she said or did. The closest that she came to being treated fairly was by Giles and Wood, mainly, I think, because Giles was still miffed at Buffy for slamming the door in his face, and Wood, let's face it, had the hots for Slayers.
 
I like the idea of Willow and Faith having that conversation think that would have been an interesting way to go. As for the Scoobies forgiving Faith? Well the problem is that she has much more in the minus side than the plus side, and after what she put Buffy and the scoobies through I think its understandable that it would take them sometime to forgive her.

I don't care about Warren and think he got just what he deserved, and its human nature to forgive people you care about quicker than people you are not so keen on, not saying its right, but that is just the way it works.
 
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