The Faith and Willow hypocrisy

[GwenRaiden]

Faith was always held at arms length by the Scoobies and Willow was mollycoddled.

 

[thetopher]

The closest that she came to being treated fairly was by Giles and Wood, mainly, I think, because Giles was still miffed at Buffy for slamming the door in his face, and Wood, let's face it, had the hots for Slayers.

Giles was a bit chilly to begin with but yeah, he got over it fast. Spike was alos okay to start with- 'accidental' exchange of blows notwithstanding.

Wood might as well have had his tongue hanging out the amount of time between 'first meeting' and 'shag' being a matter of hours.

I like the idea of Willow and Faith having that conversation think that would have been an interesting way to go. As for the Scoobies forgiving Faith? Well the problem is that she has much more in the minus side than the plus side, and after what she put Buffy and the scoobies through I think its understandable that it would take them sometime to forgive her.

I also think that a lot of Faith's redemption happened when few people were around to see it. No Scoobie saw her collapse/breakdown in Five-By-Five (although Buffy got a taste of that in the church at the end of 'Who Are You'), nor did they see and of Faith's selfless determination to save Angel in S4- it was all 'theoretical' good stuff that happened 'away' from Sunnydale- stuff they just heard about. Big whoop.
Easier to forgive somebody when you've witnessed their emotional meltdown firsthand- like the Scoobs saw with Willow or Spike.
It's shallow, but its a factor.

 

[SpikeRules]

The reason I really like Faith and could empathize with her (even though I'm a guy) was because she had this anger and rage inside of her that she couldn't couldn't control or understand. It wasn't evil, just pure rage. She also had it rough and didn't have the bright, loving up bringing that Buffy had. Then she was given these incredible powers and asked to be a responsible person and you have a perfect storm for irresponsibility and misdeeds.

In a way, Faith reminds me of myself when I was a teenager. I wasn't a bad kid, but I had a lot of anger issues and was very mischievous. I didn't hurt anyone or anything like that, but I would say hurtful things at times and sometimes when hanging out with my friends, I would vandalized things and do crazy stunts. It wasn't for attention, I just didn't care if I got hurt at the time. And no, I wasn't suicidal, I was just reckless and foolish. To say I was rebellious would be an understatement. I look back at how I was then and how I am now and I can't believe I'm the same person, just morphed and evolved into something my parents always hoped I would be. It just took time, maturity and God's grace to happen. I see that in Faith.

Faith grew out of this brash, destructive and immature young lady into a repentant, loving and caring person who would willingly give her life to protect others and I have seen her character come full circle.

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

Everyone else though? Screw that. 'I forgive this murderer but not that one' is kinda stupid, given the passaage of time that has taken place.

I agree again. The welcome was pretty cold. But to be fair, her timing was inconvenient in that sense (actually it was quite convenient since they needed her, but I hope you get what I mean 😀) since there were more pressing problems.

And I was really mad at Giles, again, since he used Faith to get back at Buffy.

Killing somebody just because somebody else tells you to is pretty low I think.

I'm not saying it isn't low, she visibly enjoyed the kill. Just that it's not murder either. Somebody brought up the war analogy and in that sense it's accurate.
Wilkins and Faith were the enemies in a war. To put it simple; General Wilkins orders Private Faith to kill Worth, whose existence represents a threat to his war objectives. A legitimate act of war. Faith couldn't be court-martialed if there were any jurisdiction since she was following orders from her commander. 😀

 

[Mr Trick]

Giles was a bit chilly to begin with but yeah, he got over it fast. Spike was alos okay to start with- 'accidental' exchange of blows notwithstanding.

Wood might as well have had his tongue hanging out the amount of time between 'first meeting' and 'shag' being a matter of hours.



I also think that a lot of Faith's redemption happened when few people were around to see it. No Scoobie saw her collapse/breakdown in Five-By-Five (although Buffy got a taste of that in the church at the end of 'Who Are You'), nor did they see and of Faith's selfless determination to save Angel in S4- it was all 'theoretical' good stuff that happened 'away' from Sunnydale- stuff they just heard about. Big whoop.
Easier to forgive somebody when you've witnessed their emotional meltdown firsthand- like the Scoobs saw with Willow or Spike.
It's shallow, but its a factor.

I'm not sure about this. It might have made a difference but I do think that as far as the Scoobies were concerned that Faith had past the point of no return, not saying I agree with them, but I do think that is the point they had reached. Also, while it was a great gesture on Angel's part to be so forgiving, its worth pointing out that its much easier to be that level headed when the person in question has not effected you so much on a personally level. Its a bit like how Angel struggled to forgive Wesley later, whereas I'm sure the Scoobies would have had no problem forgiving him, not least Willow😀

 

[gite63]

And, let's not forget, Faith killed Finch by accident, in the commission of what was undoubtedly her duty, with no thought of revenge or malice. If it hadn't been for the poor way that that incident had been handled, beginning with Buffy's, "Faith, you KILLED a MAN!" tirade, followed by Giles' poor handling of the situation, given what we later saw of his attitude concerning the taking of human life, and the almost certainly had encountered and made allowances for it in the past. That Watcher Policy might discourage killing, but certainly dealt with it and recognized the fact that it was inevitable, given the mission, seems almost a certainty. As for the volcanologist, he would still most likely have died, but some other of the Mayor's henchmen would have been the killer.

Buffy was just a teenager, she had no obligation of figuring out Faith's issues - and she acted like she didn't care. Buffy reacted sincerely and honestly: she was horrified that a man had been killed. What did Buffy do when she thought that she had killed Katrina? She immediately wanted to turn herself in, with all her self-hatred and depression; she could have take the chance and give up her duty as Slayer entirely, but she didn't.

And the professor "would die anyway" doesn't excuse Faith's crime... 😱

Buffy killing the Knights of Byzantium cannot be compared with what Faith - or any other character - did; Buffy was defending herself and her friends from an attack.

 

[HowiMetdaSlayer]

No offense, but I think that some seem to have selective memories when it comes to evidence that supports whatever argument that they're are making for either character. In my opinion both characters showed remorse for their actions at some point in the two series. As for either characters' treatment by the others that was mostly determined by their pasts with those other characters. I think that both sought redemption. I just think that we get to see more of Faith's on camera. While most of Willow's was done between seasons or inferred.

 

[Mr Trick]

No offense, but I think that some seem to have selective memories when it comes to evidence that supports whatever argument that they're are making for either character. In my opinion both characters showed remorse for their actions at some point in the two series. As for either characters' treatment by the others that was mostly determined by their pasts with those other characters. I think that both sought redemption. I just think that we get to see more of Faith's on camera. While most of Willow's was done between seasons or inferred.

This is fair, and it is just so much more dramtically interesting to explore Faith's redemtion than it is Willow's. She was the rourge Slayer who we thought was too far gone. Focusing episodes on Willow and Gile in England just would have been dull dramatically, and not carried the show forward. I would have liked more from Willow's redemption, but then like I said I think Faith had much more to make up for than Willow ever did.

 

[HowiMetdaSlayer]

Dunno bout that. I'd watch that show. 😛

 

[Mr Trick]

Dunno bout that. I'd watch that show. 😛

No come on, the few scenes we saw was in danger of turning into some kind of hippy fest just without the sex😉

 

[HowiMetdaSlayer]

Well they just showed glimpses. Besides I've seen some fanfics that dealt with that subject. Trust me lots of material there. 🙂

 

[Monkey Pants]

This is fair, and it is just so much more dramtically interesting to explore Faith's redemtion than it is Willow's. She was the rourge Slayer who we thought was too far gone. Focusing episodes on Willow and Gile in England just would have been dull dramatically, and not carried the show forward. I would have liked more from Willow's redemption, but then like I said I think Faith had much more to make up for than Willow ever did.

I agree. I loved seeing Faith's redemption, I think she's fascinating. Willow's downfall was a little more straight forward, and to spend too much time dwelling on her bad behavior in season 7 would have bogged that season down even more. I do think that they should have focused more on her guilt from a writing stand point. That has to do with the problems of season 7, namely nothing from season 6 being resolved/discussed properly. Which is part of why I think all the dark stuff, especially Willow going dark, should have happened in season 5. Then season 6 could be resolution, and season 7 could be getting back to good times.

 

[thetopher]

I agree again. The welcome was pretty cold. But to be fair, her timing was inconvenient in that sense (actually it was quite convenient since they needed her, but I hope you get what I mean 😀) since there were more pressing problems.

I think the timing was perfect giving that Caleb had just arrived. If Faith hadn't been there then Buffy's vineyard disaster would've been far bloodier, given that Faith kept Caleb occupied for a little while.

I'm not saying it isn't low, she visibly enjoyed the kill. Just that it's not murder either. Somebody brought up the war analogy and in that sense it's accurate.

Well I get that, and I don't think Faith would just kill randomly- she'd have to asked to do it by the man she cared for and who cared for her/ had shown her kindness- so it wasn't exactly a random killing.
Still very chilling when he asks her why and Faith says 'y'know, I didn't think to ask.'
I think to love a character you have to see their worst crimes for what they are, so what level they sink to, to really appreciate their rise. 🙂

I'm not sure about this. It might have made a difference but I do think that as far as the Scoobies were concerned that Faith had past the point of no return, not saying I agree with them, but I do think that is the point they had reached.

I think if Buffy had seen Faith's alley-breakdown she might've been a lot more sympathetic- eventually- given that she would've had three years to mull it over and consider that it was genuine.

Its a bit like how Angel struggled to forgive Wesley later, whereas I'm sure the Scoobies would have had no problem forgiving him, not least Willow

I was impressed with how fast Angel was to willingly work with Wes again, given what he had done to him and his son. I guess that dunk in the drink really gave him perspective. 🙂

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Don't forget that when Faith killed Finch, she tried to blame it on Buffy. If someone had accused me of murder / manslaughter, they would never get a kind word from me again. With the other killings, no one tried to blame anyone else. Buffy is fortunate that Giles did not believe Faith or Buffy would have been the one in prison.

 

[Monkey Pants]

Don't forget that when Faith killed Finch, she tried to blame it on Buffy. If someone had accused me of murder / manslaughter, they would never get a kind word from me again. With the other killings, no one tried to blame anyone else. Buffy is fortunate that Giles did not believe Faith or Buffy would have been the one in prison.

Buffy wouldn't have gone to prison. Faith wouldn't have gone to prison initially as no one even blamed her about Finch. She went to prison because she knew she had to pay for everything she'd done wrong after that initial accident.

 

[bespangeled]

It seems that for the rest of her life Faith is labeled as a murderer because she faced up to what she did, but Willow never faces punishment or even acknowledges it in S7.

I think she acknowledges it, but having skinless Warren as the First would have been really interesting!

Everyone else though? Screw that. 'I forgive this murderer but not that one' is kinda stupid, given the passaage of time that has taken place.

The closest that she came to being treated fairly was by Giles and Wood, mainly, I think, because Giles was still miffed at Buffy for slamming the door in his face, and Wood, let's face it, had the hots for Slayers.

Well, they did kick Buffy out and made Faith their leader. That seems a rather resounding affirmation considering that they were just basically going on reports from Angel's group as to her reformation.

 

[white avenger]

Well, they did kick Buffy out and made Faith their leader. That seems a rather resounding affirmation considering that they were just basically going on reports from Angel's group as to her reformation.

I saw that more as a lack of their trust in Buffy's leadership capabilities than any real support for Faith. If she hadn't been there, they would have probably been just as sure that Giles would be a better leader. Their action was more to throw Buffy out than to accept Faith.

 

[bespangeled]

I saw that more as a lack of their trust in Buffy's leadership capabilities than any real support for Faith. If she hadn't been there, they would have probably been just as sure that Giles would be a better leader. Their action was more to throw Buffy out than to accept Faith.

Yeah - but accepting Faith over Giles, Willow, even Wood is a strong validation. There were other trusted people who could take the job - so obviously they did trust Faith.

 

[white avenger]

Yeah - but accepting Faith over Giles, Willow, even Wood is a strong validation. There were other trusted people who could take the job - so obviously they did trust Faith.

But Faith was the other Slayer, as one of the Potentials pointed out. That was the main reason for her leadership being proposed in the first place. Granted, if she had not been there, they would have found a way to say that someone else would be a better leader, but the way that their group had been being run up until that point was that Buffy was in charge simply because she was the Slayer.

Remember, "But isn't Faith a Slayer too? ..... Maybe we should vote to see if she has a turn in charge..." Without Faith being there, there would have been someone else, probably Giles, nominated to take her place, but Faith was there, she was a Slayer, and she had been the one to first question Buffy's decision to return to the vineyard. Nominating her as leader was more a recognition of her power than any indication of trust in her, because neither the Potentials nor Wood, the main forces pushing for Buffy's removal, knew anything about Faith beyond Andrew's story about her killing a Vulcan. Anya knew little, if anything, more about Faith than the Potentials did, and Wood knew even less than that. The only ones who actually knew Faith's history first hand were Giles, Willow, and Xander, and neither of them actually endorsed Faith, they simply didn't support Buffy.

 

[bespangeled]

But Faith was the other Slayer, as one of the Potentials pointed out. That was the main reason for her leadership being proposed in the first place. Granted, if she had not been there, they would have found a way to say that someone else would be a better leader, but the way that their group had been being run up until that point was that Buffy was in charge simply because she was the Slayer.

I know all this - but I also know that when it came time to decide, Giles, Willow and Xander all trusted her. I am saying something nice about Faith. The fact that they trusted her really does speak well of her. Kicking out Buffy is a completely different issue, and I really think Faith did the best she could with that.

If they didn't want Faith, believe me they could have managed to push her out - instead they embraced her as a leader. Now I do have issues with the motivations of some other characters, but really Faith is pretty blameless here.