The First and the SP's

M

MentPatient

White Hat
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How do they affect each other's plans for their little armegedon? I somehow end up thinking that the SP's work with The First.

Oh, who'd win, The Master or the ubervamp from BtVS s7? :bounce:

:santa2: Ho ho ho!
 
Personally, I cannot see how the Senior Partners could be viewed as a separate entity from the First Evil. Especially since the FE is the spirit of all evil that lies within all beings - including the Senior Partners.
 
True, but I see the SPs as kind of like a Timothy McVie.

As I recall the story Timothy McVie had some kind of a twisted vision of himself as an American Patriot, but he drove a manure bomb in front of an American government building and blew it up.

The SPs sent the amulet to Sunnydale to thwart The First's plans.
 
But why was there anything in Angel where The First (itself, the noncorporeal form) was doing something to annoy/stop/attack the SP's plans?
 
S
SlayerThe
This is just for your crazy karma.
Umm, not sure i get the meaning of that last post but as far as the overall topic goes i think that there is no reason to assume they work together.

The First is the essence or accumulation of all evil and so the Senior Partners are linked to it in that sense but as far as their motivations and plans were concerned they were acting entirely separately.
 
Pagan said:
The First is the essence or accumulation of all evil and so the Senior Partners are linked to it in that sense but as far as their motivations and plans were concerned they were acting entirely separately.
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Personally I always assumed from references that the Senior Partners existed in another dimension. That being said I would think the First Evil would have no power/influence/connection in another dimension. But their plans would conflict the Senior Partner's since they have business in this dimension.

The Senior Partners would most likely not work with the First Evil because they both have different apocalypses planned. The Senior Partners have some sort of design in play that definitely conflicted with the First Evil's. While it seems like the First Evil wants to destroy the world or humanity as fast as it can. The Senior Partners are probably going to profit big gains if their Apocalypse succeeds, thus the helping of Buffy & Co. in Chosen.
 
Slayer said:
Personally I always assumed from references that the Senior Partners existed in another dimension.
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Yep, that is definately the case. However they originated on earth along with the rest of demonkind and so they too will be linked to The First, the same way any being that has evil within would be. So at that most basic of levels they are connected.

As for all the rest, i agree absolutely. Just because both the Senior Partners and The First are evil doesn't mean that they have the same ideas about what they want to see happen to humanity and what they want to gain from our downfall.
 
Pagan said:
Yep, that is definately the case. However they originated on earth along with the rest of demonkind and so they too will be linked to The First, the same way any being that has evil within would be. So at that most basic of levels they are connected.
Click to expand...

If your theory pans out, then wouldn't the PTB be connected as well? I guess the term evil is relative.

Hm, the origins of the First Evil must be very intriguing. What exactly was the connection between it's beginning and that goat thing Giles mentioned in Amends?

But another question:

Does the First Evil still have influence in a being who has existed in our plane before, but no longer does? Because I would think the First could not cross those dimensional barriers. Probably because each dimension has it's FE equivalent.
 
This is where the canon starts to let us down. The facts about how the demon dimensions relate to ours are extremely sparse. What they are, where they came from, if they are directly connected to the earth dimension, whether they were here first, we know so little about that.

Basing my theory on the little we do know though i've always assumed that evil is evil and there is only one source. In that case The First would be connected to all dimensions.

One thing we do know to back that up is that the PTB (or Jasmine at least) are able to watch over and influence the activities of the demon dimensions (as we saw in Sacrifice). If they are the supposed representatives for good throughout all realities then it makes sense that there is only one source of evil too.
 
Here's a few quotes that might help.

Here's the First describing itself in Amends:

Hmm. You think you can fight me? I'm not a demon,
little girl. I am something that you can't even conceive. The First
Evil. Beyond sin, beyond death. I am the thing the darkness fears.
You'll never see me, but I am everywhere. Every being, every thought,
every drop of hate.

Here's Giles and Willow discussing the First in Bring on the Night:

WILLOW
But we haven't found any information on The First. No documentation"”

GILES
(crosses arms) That's because it predates any written history, and it rarely shows its true face.

Jasmine describes herself as a Power That Was - forged in the fires of creation. Here she is describing the origins of Demons, The PTB and our reality:

Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.
 
Yep, pretty much as i remember them.

The First clearly appears to be an entity that has little or no limits as far as it's sphere of influence is concerned. The way it describes itself you would have to assume that it is the source of evil throughout the dimensions. Everything from Angelus to Glory to the Senior Partners to the smallest amount of evil in the average human being therefore would be connected to it.

From what Jasmine said it seems that in the beginning The First was able to begin to corrupt most beings on earth, becoming a part of demonkind and forever influencing them towards evil. However certain beings of great power were able to resist and left the realm of earth before they could be influenced. They became the Powers That Be, who to this day, may be the only entities within the slayerverse that are totally uncorrupted, possessing no evil within.

Jasmine herself may be the exception. It is hard to say for certain that anything she did could actually be construed as evil on her part, regardless of what it seemed like to us. That is a different topic however.

The real point being that The First was responsible for this series of events occuring. It corrupted what would become the demon race and forced the PTB away from earth, just as mankind later forced the demons into other realms. However they are still linked to The First as that is where their very nature was born.
 
Pagan said:
Jasmine herself may be the exception. It is hard to say for certain that anything she did could actually be construed as evil on her part, regardless of what it seemed like to us. That is a different topic however.
Click to expand...

There is an active thread that's discussing this very topic, along with what exactly are the Powers that be?

If you want you can check it out here:

https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=19583
 
So... The First was trying to wipe out the Slayers so that they wouldn't interfere with the SP's plans for the apocolyse? ???
 
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