The First as Fred?

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Okay, the other day paperdoll, a friend and I were having a talk about this.
We all know the First can assume the form of anyone who has been dead, but does that include Fred?
Did she really die 'enough' for the First to do her (in my head that didn't sound dirty at all), or not because she was overtaken by Illyria so fast?
Another point is the state of her soul. As I understood it, her soul is really destroyed, gone forever, no mojo can bring it back (so unlike a vampire's soul). So maybe, we thought, the First might also need an existing soul to do his little party trick.

Any thought on the whole issue?

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm pretty sure she's "dead enough" for The First's purposes... :bawling:

However, the destroyed soul aspect ( :bawling:² ) would make me think TF shouldn't be able to take her form. I see that to mean her being completely erased from whatever "archive" TF is drawing the forms it takes from. (But then again, "soul" is such a wishy-washy concept in the Whedonverse, I might easily be wrong.)

Anyway, I'm glad we never got to see that. I find it hard enough to bear watching Illyria (not to say he/she isn't a fascinating character and all), but to see the ultimate Evil take Fred's form would be heartbreaking.

 

[The_Final_Cylon]

to see the ultimate Evil take Fred's form would be heartbreaking.

I have never agreed with something more.

Also, I would have thought Fred was 'dead enough' but I'm not sure about the other part because they made it seem like all that was Fred was gone in a very GONE sence of the word, aka no coming back in anyway. I would assume that rule applies to TF because of how it uses the forms it does....
...I don't know if any of that made sence sorry.

 

[Silum]

Soul doesn't seem to really play a part. Just the act of being or have been dead. We wouldn't consider Buffy soulless yet she was able to be impersonated by the first.

Fred's fair game... dead as a doorknob

 

[InsaneMystic]

Soul doesn't seem to really play a part. Just the act of being or have been dead. We wouldn't consider Buffy soulless yet she was able to be impersonated by the first.

That doesn't contradict what I said. Buffy's soul still existed when TF took her form (within her living body, in her case). Fred's soul is utterly, totally gone, it exists nowhere in this dimension or any other.

 

[Anya2012]

Considering The First is the Big Bad from Buffy and not Angel, I'd doubt it.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Considering The First is the Big Bad from Buffy and not Angel, I'd doubt it.

That's completely besides the point. It's a hypothetical question - if the First wanted to assume Fred's form, for whatever reason, could he do it. I'm aware it wouldn't make sense to happen (especially with s5 being after Buffy already fought the First), but this was never what the question was about.

Soul doesn't seem to really play a part. Just the act of being or have been dead. We wouldn't consider Buffy soulless yet she was able to be impersonated by the first.

Fred's fair game... dead as a doorknob

Like IM already said, Buffy still has a soul. Vampires are implied to have souls somewhere as well, at least strong magicks can conjure them up. Normal dead people have souls that go to some sort of afterlife apparently. I'm not too sure about Glory. If she, being a hell god and everything, didn't in fact have a soul, I would accept that the First could do Fred.
The thing with Fred is, it was clearly stated that her soul is completely gone for eternity, no mojo being able to bring it back. So in my head it's like the First doesn't have a blueprint for Fred anymore, because her soul went all poof the second she died.

I think the real question here is how the First does that thing he does. Obviously, the person doesn't have to be explicitly dead atm for it to impersonate, so but then what's the key? One thing that really makes me think it's the soul is that the First has access to every last memory of a person. Where else would that come from?
And another thing just occurred to me. Could the First have already appeared as Buffy before s6? Or basically, any person that was just dead really short an could be revived by natural means? Technically, the reason why the First could appear as Buffy while she was alive in s7 might be for the same reason as why he could attack the slayer line in the first place: Willow, Xander, Anya and Tara messing around with magicks.

 

[Fresley4ever]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing that. I kind of like the idea of seeing Fred evil for a bit.

 

[WhedonsHorse]

Yes, Fred died, even if her body still remains animate, her soul moved on (or was destroyed) which means the First would be able to assume her shape. You can use Buffy as proof, even dying and coming back to life allows the First to assume your shape.

 

[Dagenspear]

Can it even be said that Fred actually died. The body still being alive and all, with possibly the soul still there, but shattered throughout Illyria's consciousness.

 

[VaderSpike24]

I think that A: Fred does count as dead, because Wesley had said that Fred's organs were liquified to host Illyria, so Fred's body is more or less dead and her soul is permanetly gone.
B: Yes, The First can take her form because of the fact that Fred is dead, soul or not, it can assume the shape of any dead person. Even Adam, who didn't have a soul while a cyborg, was able to be impersonated, so I don't think the having a soul thing applies with The First.
And C: Yes, The First could assume Buffy's form before Season six, because she had died in Season 1. Yes, it does count as a real death because the prophecy of her death was accurate, and another Slayer had been activated, and that only happens if the previous Slayer dies. So I'd say that if her first death was enough to confirm a prohecy and activate a Slayer, it would also mean that it would allow The First to look her her at that point, even before her death in Season five.
Undead, dead in the ground, drowned, ressurrected; all these aspects apply to The First.