Question The First as Warren? (s8 spoilers)

[dragx]

Sorry if this is a totally stupid question but..
If Amy had kept Warren alive through magic after the whole Willow skinning him alive thing, was Warren actually ever dead?

And if he never actually died, how could The First manifest itself as him?

Rereading The Long Way Home Pt.4, Warren says:

"If Amy hadn't been watching you,
she would never have started watching me.
Watching over me.

"Do you know she had maybe a four-second window
after my skin came off before I died of shock alone?

"That flash-paper disappearing trick was pretty hokey,
we kid about that, but thinking on your feet?
This is the girl.

"Her magic is my skin.

"That time we came up with the spell for you and your
new girlfriend-- and hey that was quick. I was still learning
to walk again and you're already in the fresh trim...
I remembered thinking and it comes up again in this
situation I just have to wonder... are you bored now?"

So from what he says, it sounds like Amy miraculously kept Warren alive, as opposed to bringing him back.
And that it was the both of them who came up with the plan to curse Willow.
In conclusion, Warren never flat lined.

Am I overlooking something? Is it a minor plot hole? Anyone have any thoughts, opinions, theories or whatnot?

PS: Sorry if this is in the wrong board; figured I could tie it in with season 7 since it's primarily about The First.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

In a letters column Joss said something like, "He was dead for a split second but Amy didn't tell him because she didn't want to upset him. I forgot okay?!" Oh, that Joss! 🙄

Not the exact quote probably, but I don't remember which issue it was in and don't want to search for it right now. lol

 

[NY State of Mind]

Plot hole i guess...i'm sure in season 7 they didn't know they'd have a story revolve around Warren/Amy in season 8...it just came up most likely

---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

In a letters column Joss said something like, "He was dead for a split second but Amy didn't tell him because she didn't want to upset him. I forgot okay?!" Oh, that Joss! 🙄

Not the exact quote probably, but I don't remember which issue it was in and don't want to search for it right now. lol

If thats true then its kind of dumb cause they always make it seem really hard to bring people back from the dead..so Amy was all of a sudden strong enough by that time and well prepared to know he was going to die

 

[white avenger]

If Amy had kept Warren alive through magic after the whole Willow skinning him alive thing, was Warren actually ever dead?

And if he never actually died, how could The First manifest itself as him?

Rereading The Long Way Home Pt.4, Warren says:


So from what he says, it sounds like Amy miraculously kept Warren alive, as opposed to bringing him back.
And that it was the both of them who came up with the plan to curse Willow.
In conclusion, Warren never flat lined.

Am I overlooking something? Is it a minor plot hole? Anyone have any thoughts, opinions, theories or whatnot?

PS: Sorry if this is in the wrong board; figured I could tie it in with season 7 since it's primarily about The First.

The Season 8 Warren never died, he never actually lived. He isn't the Warren who died in Season 6, but rather a mystical clone created by Amy to house his memories after the actual Warren died. She just hasn't ever told him about it yet.

(Joss, if you're reading this, I bailed you out again. Now, keep your word about what we discussed concerning Spike and Buff...I mean...uh...nothing.)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

If thats true then its kind of dumb cause they always make it seem really hard to bring people back from the dead..so Amy was all of a sudden strong enough by that time and well prepared to know he was going to die

I don't know, in real life, bringing someone back from being technically dead (not breathing/no heartbeat) is relatively common when it's within seconds. In this case it was within seconds, he died from being skinned, and Amy gave him mystical skin seconds later, bringing him back to life.

 

[NY State of Mind]

I don't know, in real life, bringing someone back from being technically dead (not breathing/no heartbeat) is relatively common when it's within seconds. In this case it was within seconds, he died from being skinned, and Amy gave him mystical skin seconds later, bringing him back to life.

while I agree with the theory..I still don't get how Amy was prepared to bring Warren back when she couldn't know how Willow would do things...especially when she appeared as a crack head last ep i seen her in season 6 stealing for her next magic fix...if thats the case couldn't Willow try bringing Buffy back right after she did what she did in The Gift

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

while I agree with the theory..I still don't get how Amy was prepared to bring Warren back when she couldn't know how Willow would do things...especially when she appeared as a crack head last ep i seen her in season 6 stealing for her next magic fix...

Well that's kind of my point. In this case, bringing him back was a relatively easy fix in magic terms. Warren's trauma was being skinned, and Amy simply willed mystical skin onto him, and at that point, his body had no technical ailment (functional internal organs and mystical skin).

As Skytteflickan88 pointed out, once he was whole again, some equivalent of mouth-to-mouth would be all that was needed to bring him back.

if thats the case couldn't Willow try bringing Buffy back right after she did what she did in The Gift

To answer that we'd need confirmation on just how Buffy died. If closing the tear in reality killed her, then no, some supernatural drain of her life force was in play.

If the trauma from the fall killed, her, it would still be more complex than simply transplanting mystical skin onto her...

 

[Skytteflickan88]

As stated by the head-thing in Villains, Buffy's death in The Gift was mystical. Maybe that made the difference, it was more difficult to un-do compared to bringing Warren back. Willow did use magic, but I guess it was the skinlessness that killed him, not magic in itself.

WILLOW: Oh God. Oh no...Please... please, come on... come on Tara! Please! Come on baby... (invoking magic) By Osiris, I command you! Bring her back! Hear me! Keeper of darkness-

IMPOSING DEMON: Witch! How dare you invoke Osiris in this task?

WILLOW: Please, please, bring her back!

IMPOSING DEMON: You may not violate the laws of natural passing-

WILLOW: How? How is this natural?

IMPOSING DEMON: It is a human death, by human means.

WILLOW: But I-

IMPOSING DEMON: You raised one killed by mystical forces. *This* is not the same - *she* is taken by natural order. It is done.

WILLOW: No. There's has to be a way!

IMPOSING DEMON: It is done!

WILLOW: NO! (she blows the demon away with a yell)