The First: worst Big Bad ever?

La Luna Unita said:
p.s. How come the First never directly used Tara as an avatar? Was Amber not available during Season 7 or is there another reason? (Or did she appear and I just don't remember it?)
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Amber didn't want to tarnish the fans memory of Tara... which I've always thought was giving a little to much self importance to the fact.

The First being The Worst? Despite a lot of people disliking Season 7 due to a lot of plot holes, I actually quite like it, especially on a rainy day, when I've got a cold and taken the day off work.

Caleb was a fantastic big bad, I thought it was brave off the Buffy team to so openly have an agent of The First evil as a religious figure. Was he a preacher though? He just looked like a normal priest to me. Caleb was horrible, he had the hating woman thing going which immediately pissed me off, that horrible accent (southern?), and hey - he's the first evil character to ever to permanent damage to a scoob - NOT cool.

The Bringers annoyed me, we never even got a short reasoning to where they came from or why they were agents of The First, we have the one scene when the bringer is talking through Andrew, but I'd prefer a Giles explanation. Where they really needed in this season? Surely they could have used vampires, or the turok han could have been created earlier? I always thought it seemed to similar to the fighting guys from Season 5, armies of men fighting for a cause.

Really, I don't think we can read the First as a big bad without reading Caleb, the turok han and the bringers. And at the end of the day, where would the world be without a first evil? It would make for a pretty boring TV show anyway.

The First when he was in the guise of dead people was fantastic, we got to see some fantastic scenes, like the two Buffy's discussing Buffy being all alone, which then gave Buffy her idea. We got to see Druscilla and Spike again, The Mayor and Faith, Two Spikes are always better then one in my opinion.
 
caitaintdead said:
The First when he was in the guise of dead people was fantastic, we got to see some fantastic scenes, like the two Buffy's discussing Buffy being all alone, which then gave Buffy her idea. We got to see Druscilla and Spike again, The Mayor and Faith, Two Spikes are always better then one in my opinion.
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haha, yes indeed, two spikes are better than one. yeah, i thought the first appearing as dead people and all of the villains from the past seasons was brilliant. it was so cool and wrapped everything up so well.
 
I liked the First alright, but I was definitely a lot more scared of Caleb than the First itself. Sure, the First had some really mean mind tricks it would play on people. Whose heartstrings didn't tug when the First presented itself as Cassie with a message for Willow from Tara? 🙁 But overall, I'd say the scariest baddie was either The Mayor or Glory.
 
I think that the concept of the First was really good, but they didn't make it scary enough. The three-episode arc ("Never Leave Me", "Bring On The Night", and "Showtime") made me really freaked out when I first watched it (but I was about 14 at the time. 😛), but after that the First didn't live up to my expectation. The First only regained it's scariness when Caleb came into the scene. However, again, the concept was a scary thought. All evil, the first evil = the First made it the ultimate big bad. Season seven's still my favorite.
 
BASBritt said:
I liked the First alright, but I was definitely a lot more scared of Caleb than the First itself. Sure, the First had some really mean mind tricks it would play on people. Whose heartstrings didn't tug when the First presented itself as Cassie with a message for Willow from Tara? 🙁 But overall, I'd say the scariest baddie was either The Mayor or Glory.
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The point about Caleb though is that he would never even be on the radar if it weren't for the First, he'd be nothing, just a dirty old psycho murdering preacher that Buffy could have killed with a flick of her wrist. Caleb was only powerful and scary because of his merging with the First. So yeah, Caleb was a great big bad but only as a result of the First. Also the psychological damage and weakness that the First could inflict should not be undermined, theres great power in that alone. I liked it as a big bad. Adam is and forever will be the worst.
 
I liked the first, but i felt that he- she- they- it ( my head hurts), needed more than a season to do it (i'm going with it) , justice. It really should have been an epic villain. It should have linked into the mythology of the show better, to give it that epic feel. Instead of just showing up, and being all, " hey i'm evil " .
Giles said that the world started out as a hell on earth, until the way was made for man. How was the way made for man ?. It would have been cool if they mentioned that the first ruled over all these demons, and the powers that be stepped in to stop it, or that scythe lady and her biatches. (Sorry). Some all out war between demons and the forces of good, with the first leading the charge. Even bring the first slayer's origin into it. She could have fought the first, used the scythe to weaken it, and made it incorporeal . That's my version anyway, can you guess I like Lord of the rings. What i'm saying is the first should have linked into the shows history, it should have been something to fear. And when it showed it's face again, just the name alone should have gave everyone, including the viewers, a full blown wiggins.
 
That's true, but ' Amends" always sticks in my head as a great angel episode, and a great set up for the spin-off. Not so much for the first, didn't know enough about it, other than it was old and bad.
 
JCC said:
The First was the best Big Bad of all of them. That was the point, the First was just symbolic of Fear, and Fear is the great manipulator. Season 7 was about overcoming oneself, the First was the perfect example of that. Best Big Bad.
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I think it had the potential to be the best if it actually used its power for more twisted playing. Like appearing to Xander, Willow and Giles as Buffy and saying things that'll make them turn against her and distrust her. Also, appearing as Spike to Dawn and rubbing it in her face that he tried to rape her sister and had a very twisted sexual relationship with her. Appearing as Spike to Xander while Spike lived in his apartment or controlling Spike to hurt Xander instead of mere strangers (I already wrote a fic like that and was complemented that I was eviler and smarter than The First 😉 )
 
This may be the most convuluted thread on the whole site? Do we mean the worst big bad as far as Badder than bad so he is a great villian?

OR

He stinks as a villian?

If you just need everything handed to you on a silver platter you're not really getting the point of Buffy at all. (or literature or art or whatever)

Joss and crew are masters at the Shakespearean style plot device where the worst worst things that can happen all happen off stage, and the writer director or whoever let's us fill in the blanks with our own imagination.

In the age where SAW 1 to 5 are some of the most popular and lucrative low budget films of the last decade, people seem to want it all explained to them in 3D smellorama or they just don't get it. Sad commentary on our societies and how jaded we are.

I'd much rather fill in the blanks with my own imagination.

On another whole level compare the Master to the First. Neither could really do much until they conquered the Hellmouth. But the agents of the first were LEGION and MOTIVATED and PURE EVIL.

I think the reall equation works something more like this.
The 7th season was the last season so that stinks, hence the 7th season stinks. I disagree adimantly.

Uncle Rory
 
Part of the reason The First never worked for me was because it was always being portrayed by different actors, and thus there wasn't a discernible fluidity in its "personality" that we could really cling to. All he really did was say "evil" stuff, and he didn't have the human foibles of all the other Big Bads (except maybe Adam). Plus, his being incorporeal just made him very non-threatening.
 
While he wasn't physically threatening because of the whole incorporeal thing I think theres a lot to be said for the psychological damage he caused among the scoobies.... getting into their heads, and finding the things and people that make them tick and preying on that, was just as, if not more damaging than the physical beating Caleb delivered to Buffy IMO... The mind games alone served to weaken the scoobies and throw them off their game, distract them. I mean just look at the power it was able to gain over Spike without ever laying a single finger on him.
 
The thing The First lacked from previous seasons was it defiantly not being corporeal, but it did deliver creepiness well when it talked. I guess we just got so used to big bad's that were so psychically intimidating and so powerful, and then in season 7, we find out "oh this is the last season and the big bad can't even hurt you? boooo!". But The First wasn't that bad, it did get a little repetive near the end, but at least it's minions were pretty cool right? Caleb was awesome, and the UberVamps were so cool at the start of the season, i mean i haven't watched S7 since it was shown back in 02-03, but i will never forget that episode when Buffy was getting her butt completely whooped by that UberVamp. She was basically trying to run away, but was beaten so badly that she was forced to fight this damn near impossible to kill Vampire.


So yeah The First while not my fan big bad, was still pretty creepy and scary in a mental type of way.
 
The First was kinda creepy at moments. Like in "Conversations with Dead People", when we thought Giles might be The First, etc...but no, I don't think it was the most horrifying or scary Big Bad there ever was.
I do think it was fitting that the "final" Big Bad was the original source of all evil...but I don't know, it could have been portrayed better. If it had been corporeal, for one thing, I think it would have been scarier.


Oh, and p.s...am I the only one that thinks of the First as a female? I know it's because of it appearing to Angel primarily in the form of Ms. Calendar, but ever since S3, I've always thought of the First as being female.
 
I thought the idea of the ultimate evil, the first evil was damn clever, if I do say so myself. Of course they needed something like that to end the series. Something epic...something that could turn everyone against each other...something that has you questioning everything around you....something that seems impossible to defeat. The idea that it could be anyone is interesting and keeps you guessing, not to mention making it possible to bring back old characters!
 
fly on the wall said:
Oh, and p.s...am I the only one that thinks of the First as a female? I know it's because of it appearing to Angel primarily in the form of Ms. Calendar, but ever since S3, I've always thought of the First as being female.
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Wouldn't that really bug the hell out of Caleb, working for a Mistress?

Never thought of it like that... of course, it would fit in well with all the ancient misogynistic church stuff about Eve bringing sin into the world, Lilith gone all demon-mothery, and the old devil depictions with very obvious boobs (still shown like that on some variations of tarot decks).
 
i personally think the first was one of the best big bads. i mean it was the oldest of the old ones. it's what caused the rest of the big bads. and come on do you really think the first was worse than adam/initiative?????? I loved how the first was manipulative and deceptive. i love how it popped up out of no where and COWDP easily one of the best eps of buffy ever.
 
InsaneMystic said:
Wouldn't that really bug the hell out of Caleb, working for a Mistress?

Never thought of it like that... of course, it would fit in well with all the ancient misogynistic church stuff about Eve bringing sin into the world, Lilith gone all demon-mothery, and the old devil depictions with very obvious boobs (still shown like that on some variations of tarot decks).
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Well, the First usually showed up as Buffy to Caleb (another reason why I associate the First as being female...it was usually in Buffy's form). And I do think it irked him a little, but meh.
 
Airam said:
While he wasn't physically threatening because of the whole incorporeal thing I think theres a lot to be said for the psychological damage he caused among the scoobies.... getting into their heads, and finding the things and people that make them tick and preying on that, was just as, if not more damaging than the physical beating Caleb delivered to Buffy IMO... The mind games alone served to weaken the scoobies and throw them off their game, distract them. I mean just look at the power it was able to gain over Spike without ever laying a single finger on him.
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True...but he did so without much of a personality, and that's what I think is the biggest problem. You can't even really see The First as a character...he's just a "troublesome entity"...which knocks off hard points when compared to the other baddies...
 
Blodeuedd said:
I agree with White avenger. The First didn't worry me as much as Caleb, he was pure evil!
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Did anyone understood what the First Evil symbolized?

It symbolized the spirit of Evil that exists in everyone - from Buffy to some minor demon minion or some housewife.

What Buffy and her friends did was ruin the First Evil's plans to upset the balance of good and evil in the mortal world. They didn't destroy it. They never could. Joyce hinted that in Buffy's dream in "Bring On the Night".

Caleb was pure evil? The First Evil was a part of Caleb, just as it was within everyone.

Battling the First Evil was like battling a part of oneself - at least for Buffy and the others. The Scoobies were battling their worst enemy - themselves.
 
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