The Gang's memories

Lyri

Lyri

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ok, going with the whole 'new discussions' thing, i thought i'd bring up this wonderful subject. i've never discussed this here, and i thought maybe it'd be a nice change of pace.

so, at the end of S4, Angel made a deal with W&H that gave Connor the live he thought his son deserved. Connor was wiped from the memories of the rest of the gang, and only Angel, Cordelia, and for some reason, Eve and Hamilton remember him.
so what do the gang remember about the last 2 years?
Wesley obviously remembers his relationship with Lilah, as he mentions something to Cordy, but why does he think he started sleeping with her? Wes left AI because if his attempted kidnapp of baby Conor that resulted in him being taken by Hotlz. so if this didn't happen in Wes's mind, what was the catalyst?
there are a lot of other things too. Like how does Lorne think he ended up in Las Vegas? he left because he wasn't getting along with adult Connor, but if Connor didn't exist...

so now i open this up to the boards. discuss.
 
Man, I'm going to have to do a rewatchathon of all these shows soon. Little details are escaping me. I do remember Wes saying something to somebody about decapitating his girlfriend (was it his father?), but we also see that bit in I think it's Origin, where the orlon window breaks, and all Wesley's memories come flashing back to him. One of the memories is Lilah dressed as Fred stradling Wesley.
 
Its not just that.
I brought up a point in another thread that would work as part of this discussion. How much of the real world is real.

The whole world changing to change Connors life is one thing. Then there is The monks fiddling with everything to make Dawn human. Then Jasmine manipulating things to get her way.

Then theres the fact that witches like Willow can change memories. And demons like Anya that can change the whole world. Like she said "how do you know that worlds any better than this one". How do we know its the right one?

Also Normal again. My mum always thought that would be a good way to end it. Whats to say that wasnt the real reality.

We dont know whats real and whats not.
 
maybe we should start a thread in Inside Out, and discuss every reality changing thing that has happened on the show and go from there...maybe i'll go start that in a second.

but focusing on the Connor chaging for the minute, i think you're right, N4H, it was Wes's father he told about decapitating his girlfriend...and i hope he was talking about Lilah, 'cause i don't think he decapitated anyone else. lol
but before the Orlan winodw breoke, what did the gang remember? what memories were left behind and what was changed? and what was it changed to?
Fred and Gunn abviouslly remember dating, and they started their relationship in 'Waiting in the Wings' Connor was around at that point. So, why didn't Lorne go to the Ballet? what was his reason for staying behind?
come on, gang. there are so many ways this thread could go...i'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion.
 
Lyri said:
but before the Orlan winodw breoke, what did the gang remember? what memories were left behind and what was changed?
Click to expand...

That's the point though. When the Orlon window breaks don't we see all those stolen memories in the montage? As far as Wesley's concerned anyway.

I wouldn't worry about starting another thread. It's all connected to Season 5.
 
yeah, we see them all, but that still doesn't explain what the gang thinks happened.
 
No, but it gives you a reference point. If these are the kinds of memories Wesley lost, whatever rules govern that collection should apply to the others.
 
Another thing that really had me thinking is, how did Cordelia become pregnant with Jasmine?? In their memories, did she get pregnant or did Jasmine get to her some other way. Because I was watching You're Welcome the other day and I noticed that when Cordelia says, "Maternal instincts aside, I hope you kicked it's ass for me," Wesley had a counfused look on his face. Like saying, what is she talking about? I agree though that the whole mind altering thing is very intresting.
 
what if she got pregnant by someone else? maybe Angel?
but i agree about the look on Wes's face...it seemed like he remembered it differently.
i've just been thinking, what about the ep 'The Trial'? abgel won the right to get a second life, but, because Darla was already living her second chance, who did the go to? in the 'real' world, it resulted in Connor.
 
Probably they thought it was some mystical demon thing. Which it kinda was. It wouldnt be the first time she woke up pregnant. Maybe this time she just didnt need the help 😛

As for Lorne not going to the ballet, I didnt see it as he was volunteered to babysit, I saw it as he wasnt invited. Like he sang to Connor "who no way resents not being asked to go to the ballet" (or lyrics to that effect). So he wasnt actually invited. Therefore that wouldnt be an issue.
 
The easiest way to go about this is to start at the beginning of where you assume the changes had to begin. Obviously for the gang that would be in the season three episode Offspring, where Darla first turns up pregnant.

So first questions. Do the gang have any recollection of Sahjhan? He is intimately tied to everything that happened with Connor and so would there be any way to keep the memory of him without linking it to Connor? Do the gang remember what happened to Darla? Do they even know she is dead? How and why do they now believe that Holtz time jumped to the present?

I've got a number of ideas about this, including one that links to a thread that I was going to start concerning exactly what Cyvus Vale did to reality, but I'm going to wait now until we get a few more ideas in this thread. 😉
 
thanks Arcane...this is exactly what i wanted from this thread. ideas from you guys as to what you think they remember.
it can even go back farher than Offspring...to, like i said, The Trial, and other S2 eps.
 
Lyri said:
thanks Arcane...this is exactly what i wanted from this thread. ideas from you guys as to what you think they remember.
it can even go back farher than Offspring...to, like i said, The Trial, and other S2 eps.
Click to expand...

Technically, if we are purely talking about the gang's memories, then going back before Offspring is unnecessary. The events of the Trial, Reprise, Epiphany and so on could have happened very easily without any changes simply because just attempting to give Darla a second chance at life or Angel and Darla having sex did not have to lead to the birth of Connor. In fact nothing that happened in season two could ever have led Angel or anyone to believe that Darla was going to fall pregnant. Because of that it's unlikely that anything prior to Darla walking into the Hyperion in Offspring needed to be altered.
 
ok, i see your point...very well put.
ok, so we'll take it form Offspring...i haven't watched S3 in a while, so i'm a little fuzzy on the details, but Darla walks in with a baby bump, but what else happened in the ep that would have been changed?
 
See, that is the big problem with working this all out. Do we assume that Darla still walked through those doors, but for another reason? Do we assume that Sarhjhan still went after Angel? If he did, do we assume that the gang still recall Holtz or was it necessary to remove his part in history from their memories too?

Basically nearly every event that happened in season three was directly tied to Connor, one way or another. It's actually easier to write him out of the events of season four because whilst Connor played a major role in reality, it's possible that his part in Jasmine's plan could have been filled by others. The fact that Angel had a baby son and that most of the third year was centred around that fact is a little less simple to obscure without basically removing everything and creating a false year entirely.

Might be easier to assume that Darla, Holtz and Sarhjhan actually did still play a part in the false memories and that we need to establish an alternative reason why they could each have been around, without Connor's role involved.
 
Jenny
Jenny
All excellent points, in particular your last paragraph/assumption!
well, Holtz came back to deal with Angel, it's just the fact that it was Sahjhan was the one to bring him back that's the issue here.
we can assume that, since the prophecy that Wes found is false, that maybe another prphecy cameto light.
the original prophecy was that Connor would kill Sahjhan, which eventually happened. nd Sahjhan fabricated the 'the Father will kill the Son' prophecy, which caused Wes to kidnapp Connor in the first place.
but what if the prphecy that the gang remembered was something to do with Angel being the one to kill Sahjhan, and the fabricated one something to do with Angel killing one, or all, of his friends instead. the reason Wes left could be that he decided to kill Angel first to prevent him, Angel, from becoming evil.
did that make sense?
 
Maybe it happened like the way Joss originally planned season four-Cordy as the big bad. So the gang remember only evil Cordy, but no Conner, at all, But it doesn't explain Jasmine's "birth", Maybe as someone pionted out she had a mystical pergancy like Jesus's mother Mary? When Cordy said Maternal feelings aside etc the gang remained quiet as if they had something to hide, well that's how i saw it anyway.

*edit just reading Lyri's post IT DOES make sense.
 
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