The Gift - As A Series Finale

Btvs fan said:
@thrasherpix You've also got the hole in the desert when Sunnydale is meant to be a coastal Town. But for me the worst moment is the Buffy montage about giving a choice when you've got literally a load of girls not being given a choice !. He could've easily had the Potentials with Buffy just be the ones to get the powers and that's it but nope , he wanted his moment so didn't care how it looked or what came before.


Tim Minear on Passion of the Nerd Podcast saying it was Joss being bores and not Julie Benz being unavailable on why they went to Pylea in Angel Season 2 is eye opening. It makes me wonder why people go out of there way to make excuses for his writing or simply blame Marti etc. Like seriously why I don't get it ? Yes praise his good writing but criticising his bad writing is fair too
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Even the geography is just one more reason one has to ignore the first 5 seasons to accept 6 and 7. (The desert scene in season 5 struck me as a fairly long drive as opposed to just a few minutes, though it's hard to say. If that is the natural environment, then Sunnydale works hard to keep so many trees in the town!)

The "make a choice" speech sounds good on paper, but even on the first viewing (as its executed) it didn't sit right with me, especially with how it was followed up in both the books and comics (which I quickly dropped). Though it's actually one of the easier things to ignore...unfortunately.

But even silly season 1 had vampires who were different, from the feral to the unique (like the one with a fork for a hand) to clever (Darla) to strong (Luke) to the Master (with unique powers), even the boy. So of course I just assumed that the uber-vamps would have their differences, as just about anything not straight off an assembly line (or maybe puppets like the Bringers) would. And it did beg the question what were they eating, they didn't look to have food, and I'd say attacked as starving in the last ep, which would make them weak and stupid, while the champion brought over, who I presumed was special (feared by even other uber-vamps), had time to feed and get to full strength before unleashed upon the others.

It's really bad when even my immediate assumptions have better quality than the professional writers. And that's just the immediate stuff, once I got to the end, thought about it, and then years later saw it again...I will never force myself to endure season 7 again, save maybe a couple of eps or so on the first dvd or so.
 
Season 1-5 are set in Sunnydale-by-the-Sea, a coastal town surrounded by forests. Seasons six and seven are an AU, set in Sunnydale-in-the-Desert, an inland town surrounded by desert.

(Forests play a significant role in 1-5; there's even an episode called "Into the Woods"! Yet there are none in the desert that surrounds the town later. That's why it's called "desert.")
 
NotASlayer said:
Season 1-5 are set in Sunnydale-by-the-Sea, a coastal town surrounded by forests. Seasons six and seven are an AU, set in Sunnydale-in-the-Desert, an inland town surrounded by desert.

(Forests play a significant role in 1-5; there's even an episode called "Into the Woods"! Yet there are none in the desert that surrounds the town later. That's why it's called "desert.")
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Season 6 finale still has a coast and forest.

Season 7, the episode with the belly eating Gnarl, had a forest.

That being said, this episode is fine. I am just a bit miffed about Spike being a near useless weakling in this episode.
 
thrasherpix said:
Even the geography is just one more reason one has to ignore the first 5 seasons to accept 6 and 7. (The desert scene in season 5 struck me as a fairly long drive as opposed to just a few minutes, though it's hard to say. If that is the natural environment, then Sunnydale works hard to keep so many trees in the town!)

The "make a choice" speech sounds good on paper, but even on the first viewing (as its executed) it didn't sit right with me, especially with how it was followed up in both the books and comics (which I quickly dropped). Though it's actually one of the easier things to ignore...unfortunately.

But even silly season 1 had vampires who were different, from the feral to the unique (like the one with a fork for a hand) to clever (Darla) to strong (Luke) to the Master (with unique powers), even the boy. So of course I just assumed that the uber-vamps would have their differences, as just about anything not straight off an assembly line (or maybe puppets like the Bringers) would. And it did beg the question what were they eating, they didn't look to have food, and I'd say attacked as starving in the last ep, which would make them weak and stupid, while the champion brought over, who I presumed was special (feared by even other uber-vamps), had time to feed and get to full strength before unleashed upon the others.

It's really bad when even my immediate assumptions have better quality than the professional writers. And that's just the immediate stuff, once I got to the end, thought about it, and then years later saw it again...I will never force myself to endure season 7 again, save maybe a couple of eps or so on the first dvd or so.
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I agree completely. There was no excuse for Joss to be that lazy re the uber vampires in season 7. He said he wanted to focus more on empowerment. Rubbish, why can't you focus on both? It's not one or the other as previous episodes that worked showed.

Really there was no point to the Turok Han in the end as they were so weak. That said I do love the first Turok Han. I think it was one of the best monsters they ever had. That should have been it however.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
I kind of thought of the first as being a "Boss" Turok Han. The most powerful one as the one able to get out first.
G
garfan
I think the First powered it up like it did with Caleb
hoponlilmama said:
I thought Marti was on board with 'Spuffy'? Please do correct me if I'm wrong here!
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In terms of the writers, Jane Espenson was openly the Spuffy Shipper, not Marti. Marti was a Riley shipper. She saw Spuffy as a 1 and done and thats it. Buffy sleeps with Spike then immediately regrets it and never again.
Doug Petrie was a Riley shipper (see any of his DVD Commentaries or As You Were)
David Fury was against Spuffy and openly called Spuffy Shippers serial killer lovers.
Joss wasn't a Spuffy shipper, he simply recognised that it was popular though he tried to insult them without losing his Joss is God status among them, and to much of a coward to openly declare agajnst it.In Ats S5 Destiny , Fury says it was Joss who had Spike sleep with Harmony not him
 
T
thrasherpix
This makes sense out of a crazy sitch, thanks!
The finale was good, but Season 5 Spike was the worst version of the character.

He was struggling with human tier mooks of Glory. Giles and other humans actually put up a better fight with these guys.


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Spike's performance was pathetic in this season and this episode.

At least he got to beat up powerful foes in Season 6 and 7.
 
Btvs fan said:
In terms of the writers, Jane Espenson was openly the Spuffy Shipper, not Marti. Marti was a Riley shipper. She saw Spuffy as a 1 and done and thats it. Buffy sleeps with Spike then immediately regrets it and never again.
Doug Petrie was a Riley shipper (see any of his DVD Commentaries or As You Were)
David Fury was against Spuffy and openly called Spuffy Shippers serial killer lovers.
Joss wasn't a Spuffy shipper, he simply recognised that it was popular though he tried to insult them without losing his Joss is God status among them, and to much of a coward to openly declare agajnst it.In Ats S5 Destiny , Fury says it was Joss who had Spike sleep with Harmony not him
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Thank you for the information!
Seems divided in the writers/show runners room on Spuffy, then. JW obviously had the final word and he let it happen, I guess. I knew DF was against it.

Wish it was just a one-and-done (or that it never got to that point at all, actually..).
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NotASlayer- if only, NAS...

Here's the way I see it: no other vampire (Angel aside but he's the anomaly as a vampire with a soul) actually hangs out with a Slayer - your enemy.

Spike is obsessed on some level with Slayers. That, combined with the chip has him thinking he was 'in love' with her. He couldn't overpower her and kill her anymore due to the Initiative, so it turned into some warped sense of having feelings for her.

The chip has a lot to answer for.
 
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NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Dru should have abducted Spike in season five and made him come to his senses.
Dru abducts Spike, removes the chip, with magic, by abducting a surgeon, using a spoon (it's Dru, so who knows?), tortures him to hate Buffy and Bad Spike and Dru return as the true Big Bads of season six.
 
NotASlayer said:
Dru abducts Spike, removes the chip, with magic, by abducting a surgeon, using a spoon (it's Dru, so who knows?), tortures him to hate Buffy and Bad Spike and Dru return as the true Big Bads of season six.
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I'm on board with this!
 
I think Rack could have been modelled to serve as S6 big bad. He would have been a better choice than the nerds - the cast of big bang theory would have made better villains! Well, maybe not...
 
As to how badly written season six was to end up with Dark Willow as the Big Bad, this is an interesting theory that I basically came across in a piece of fanfic, "Done" by Aragorn II Elessar.

The writers in season six regularly ignored seasons 1-5 in order to bludgeon their storylines into working. Reading "Done", it seems they also ignored season six to do so.

Consider.

After Warren Mears killed Tara, Willow went to the Magic Box to drain all the magic from the books to go on her rampage of revenge.

Rephrasing that to take season six into consideration.

After Warren Mears killed Tara, Willow went to a shop run by a newly re-empowered vengeance demon, one who specialised in granting wishes for women wronged by men. Wishes that had a proven ability to change the past, and said vengeance demon had recently tried to get Willow and Tara to ask for wishes, in the definite belief that she could grant them.

Could the entire end of the season, including "Seeing Red" and notable chunks of season seven, have been rewritten simply by not ignoring what had already been written a few episodes prior in that season and having Willow go "I wish..."?
 
NotASlayer said:
Dru abducts Spike, removes the chip, with magic, by abducting a surgeon, using a spoon (it's Dru, so who knows?), tortures him to hate Buffy and Bad Spike and Dru return as the true Big Bads of season six.
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Actually no, I'm against this. Dru has already dumped him twice by this point anyway.
My view is I would've made Spike a more Silco esq father figure to Dawn instead. Silco genuinely cared about Jinx but equally he led her down a very messed up path. Have Spike do the same with Dawn. Have Dawn be messed up because of it and Buffy as the Vi figure.
Hell have Willow turn earlier (because of her own insecurities) and team up with Spike and have them as the Villains with Buffy trying to save her Sisters soul.

@topher Willow was due to turn earlier but it would've been from her own insecurities and blaming Buffy for Tara's death I believe. Alison Hannigan didn't like and so Joss changed it for her
 
When i worked in L.A. the "word" on Whedon was:
Great Scriptdoctor,
Good writer,
Ok director,
Mediocre producer,
Bad manager,
Terrible Boss.
He was seen as a "kiss up" and "kick down" bully.

Anyhow, he should have stuck with his original 5 season plan and ended season 5 with Chosen instead of the Gift and then concentrated on Angel and Firefly. I think things would have worked out better for everyone involved.
 
NoShip said:
When i worked in L.A. the "word" on Whedon was:
Great Scriptdoctor,
Good writer,
Ok director,
Mediocre producer,
Bad manager,
Terrible Boss.
He was seen as a "kiss up" and "kick down" bully.

Anyhow, he should have stuck with his original 5 season plan and ended season 5 with Chosen instead of the Gift and then concentrated on Angel and Firefly. I think things would have worked out better for everyone involved.
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Interesting thank you. What were peoples thoughts on some of the others who worked there such as Greenwalt and Noxon ?

I agree with you he should've stuck with his 5 year plan but let's be honest if UPN had come to one of us with a load of cash and guaranteed 2 years,we'd do it. So I can't blame him for taking the money even though 6 and 7 were bad TV
 
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NoShip
A lot of people thought Noxon was Whedon's mistress (she vociferously denies & he has never commented).
Btvs fan said:
Interesting thank you. What were peoples thoughts on some of the others who worked there such as Greenwalt and Noxon ?

I agree with you he should've stuck with his 5 year plan but let's be honest if UPN had come to one of us with a load of cash and guaranteed 2 years,we'd do it. So I can't blame him for taking the money even though 6 and 7 were bad TV
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There are some show creators who stick to their plan, thankfully. They leave the party early, and these shows have been all the better for it.
 
hoponlilmama said:
There are some show creators who stick to their plan, thankfully. They leave the party early, and these shows have been all the better for it.
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Breaking Bad/The Wire and Babylon 5 all had 5 year plans and stuck to them and they were better for it
 
November
November
I need to check all three of those out then!
T
thrasherpix
I've been told of B5 spinoffs whose titles I can't remember, but other than one cool arc or another, I was also told to skip it by every single fan.
Creating a spin-off rather than going past your original plan is always an option, too. I mean, they'd done it once already.
 
Btvs fan said:
Interesting thank you. What were peoples thoughts on some of the others who worked there such as Greenwalt and Noxon ?

I agree with you he should've stuck with his 5 year plan but let's be honest if UPN had come to one of us with a load of cash and guaranteed 2 years,we'd do it. So I can't blame him for taking the money even though 6 and 7 were bad TV
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You are correct. It is really hard to turn down $100+ million.

BUT.....Joss benefitted the most from the money, so, Joss should have continued to run Buffy and put Firefly off until he finished Buffy, or, picked a competent showrunner.
 
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