Buffanator
got Spike?
You know the ones... Clem, Lorne, etc.
What made them good? Did they have souls? Does ANY demon have a soul?
What made them good? Did they have souls? Does ANY demon have a soul?
The "good" demons
- Thread starter Buffanator
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Blondie Bear
Zydrate Addict
That's a loaded question. People--who, in the Whedonverse, definitely have souls--can do some pretty awful things. And, obviously, demons--who, we're lead to believe, DON'T--can do some pretty nice things. So I guess the real question is the same one we've been hashing since Spike became all soul-having again: what is a soul, and what does it do to/for its owner?
NightBird
Potential
I never really saw the big fizz with souls, I always assumed that it was the personality of the individual that mattered be they demon, human or ex-demon.
I saw souls as an easy way of the writers saying 'lookie he's good, with a soul to prove it', or 'you don't have a soul, bad you'.
I saw souls as an easy way of the writers saying 'lookie he's good, with a soul to prove it', or 'you don't have a soul, bad you'.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
Well... some demons were from entirely different dimensions. Just because they're not what we would call people here doesn't mean they're not people back home. In Lorne's dimension, for example, a human is something less than a person, but a demon like Lorne is the equivalent of a person here. I'd say whether or not Lorne has a soul depends upon whether or not the soul is a property belonging strictly to people from this dimension or whether it is a basic component of intelligent life in all of its forms. Actually, I'm not even sure that Lorne is a demon. He might be something more akin to an alien or another type of homonid. These things are pretty vague in the Buffyverse. What is a soul? What is a demon? Until you know, you can't say for sure whether or not Lorne or Clem have souls.
My first theory is that so-called demons who are born (or hatched), have a natural life cycle, and then die and also have some level of communication, culture, and intelligence (whether greater than or less than that of humans) very likely also have what we would regard as a soul. Even though we don't know exactly what it is or how to measure or prove it, people who have a conscience and at least attempt to do good (or to avoid evil) are regarded as having souls. This is generally regarded as a property of a species, but there are exceptions to the rule. Some people, like the possessed boy that Angel "saves" only to find out that the host was more frightening than the parasite demon, lack this basic moral compass and are regarded as soulless. Other species that are not supposed to have souls, like the vampires Angel, Spike, and even Darla, can obtain souls via magic or other strange circumstances. So it's pretty flexible, even for a human or a human hybrid for which the rules are more or less fixed and known. For me, Lorne and Clem would both fit into the category of souled demons the same way that most people and some vampires do: by their actions. They clearly each have a conscience and make an attempt to use it, therefore, I think they have souls.
It is interesting to note that the dividing line between souled and unsouled might have something to do with the expulsion of pure demons from Earth's dimension. All demons currently walking the Earth (except for those who, like Lorne, are from one of these alternate dimensions) are hybrids of demons and some sort of earthly creature. That leads me to my second theory, which may either supersede or complement the first:
Since most demons are hybrids of demons and animals that are not generally regarded as having souls, then it is probably safe to assume that the hybrid demons don't have souls, either. Also, the lack of soul could be due to monstrosity. "Abominations" like vampires, which are reviled on both sides of the human/demon line, are more accurately described as "monsters" than as demons. A monster is an unnatural mixing of kinds, usually with bloodthirsty or violent results and representing the worst of its parent types. To a demon, a vampire represents the very worst of humanity. To a human, a vampire represents the very worst of, erm, demonity. They are undead and, in the process of transformation, they lose their souls. Knowing this, I think it might be safe to say that the loss of the soul is the result of the hybridization, not the result of being demon. I think, then, that it is possible to theorize that pure demons have souls while hybrid demons do not.
What does everyone else think?
My first theory is that so-called demons who are born (or hatched), have a natural life cycle, and then die and also have some level of communication, culture, and intelligence (whether greater than or less than that of humans) very likely also have what we would regard as a soul. Even though we don't know exactly what it is or how to measure or prove it, people who have a conscience and at least attempt to do good (or to avoid evil) are regarded as having souls. This is generally regarded as a property of a species, but there are exceptions to the rule. Some people, like the possessed boy that Angel "saves" only to find out that the host was more frightening than the parasite demon, lack this basic moral compass and are regarded as soulless. Other species that are not supposed to have souls, like the vampires Angel, Spike, and even Darla, can obtain souls via magic or other strange circumstances. So it's pretty flexible, even for a human or a human hybrid for which the rules are more or less fixed and known. For me, Lorne and Clem would both fit into the category of souled demons the same way that most people and some vampires do: by their actions. They clearly each have a conscience and make an attempt to use it, therefore, I think they have souls.
It is interesting to note that the dividing line between souled and unsouled might have something to do with the expulsion of pure demons from Earth's dimension. All demons currently walking the Earth (except for those who, like Lorne, are from one of these alternate dimensions) are hybrids of demons and some sort of earthly creature. That leads me to my second theory, which may either supersede or complement the first:
Since most demons are hybrids of demons and animals that are not generally regarded as having souls, then it is probably safe to assume that the hybrid demons don't have souls, either. Also, the lack of soul could be due to monstrosity. "Abominations" like vampires, which are reviled on both sides of the human/demon line, are more accurately described as "monsters" than as demons. A monster is an unnatural mixing of kinds, usually with bloodthirsty or violent results and representing the worst of its parent types. To a demon, a vampire represents the very worst of humanity. To a human, a vampire represents the very worst of, erm, demonity. They are undead and, in the process of transformation, they lose their souls. Knowing this, I think it might be safe to say that the loss of the soul is the result of the hybridization, not the result of being demon. I think, then, that it is possible to theorize that pure demons have souls while hybrid demons do not.
What does everyone else think?
I
InsaneMystic
actually that's a good point, see my post below
anyatara
Scooby
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Do regular demons have souls? That's something that's never been covered, sure vampires don't, but they're dead so that explains that, demons aren't. Weather demons have souls or not, sure most of them are evil, I think with Lorne, well he's from Pylea, he was treated badly there and he never hurt/killed anyone in that dimension, so why should he start just because he came to this dimension? With Clem, I think it's mostly because it's weaker than other demons, as are humans, so he'd rather blend in with them (Although being a demon that's kinda hard...) than hurt them.
InsaneMystic
Ex-Scooby
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A fact that might support the theory of pure demons having souls is that they are usually ascended humans, like the Mayor, and thus souled-but-evil by default. And even though Wilkins mentioned having sold away his soul, I always took that phrase to mean "upon death, go straight to the Fiery Pits, do not pass GO", and not having the soul sucked out of him while alive - soul-suckage while living, in the verse, seems to usually results in some kind of living zombie, not in an evil mastermind. That would mean Snake!Mayor, one of the extremely few pure demons to walk (erm... crawl/slither?) the Earth, would still have a soul - even though this soul would, in his case, probably still become property of Whoever upon his death.
Oh, and by the way - 300 posts. :yay:
M
Mozzymandias
Congratulations on 300 posts :)
B
Blondie Bear
O.O Killer puppets? Seriously? Why don't they just literally translate these things instead of being retarded?
Did not Mayor in S7 say that he got rid of his soul or well sold it anyways? Of course that could been just a saying opposed to literal meaning.
Generally i think demons have souls. Their view of life is a lot different however due to different instincts to guide them. Vampires do not have souls due to process their created.
Generally i think demons have souls. Their view of life is a lot different however due to different instincts to guide them. Vampires do not have souls due to process their created.
Fake Shemp
VH Hero
well. maybe its some demons which are non violent breeds? because they are usually from another dimension it might be that they have no interest in hurting or hunting humans. oh you gotta love clem! hes such a sweetie.