The Hot Topic: Angel Inc & W&H

[Taake]

This weeks Hot Topic comes from Brinkster130; Was it a good move when Angel and his crew took over Wolfram and Hart? What do you guys think?

Did it benefit the show? Was it the best move for the group? What might the season have looked like if they hadn't gone to W&H? What were your feelings about this move?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think it was an attempt to breath life into the series, which, was running low at that particular time. In that regards yes, it was a good idea. I dont think the storylines were handled correctly at all after that though. Partly that has to do with the addition of Spike and his connection to W&H. I think it would have worked better one or the other- W&H or Spike, not both.

 

[Taake]

W&H or Spike, not both.

Interesting. I'm trying to picture Spike at the Hyperion but it just feels wrong. 🙂
I see your point though, it might have been too much to add both of these elements at the same time.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Interesting. I'm trying to picture Spike at the Hyperion but it just feels wrong. 🙂
I see your point though, it might have been too much to add both of these elements at the same time.

That's because Spike would NOT be at the Hyperion. He would have been roaming the city as what Angel used to be- sort of in the role Lindsay had in in briefly. He would have been more like a first season Gunn than a comedy sidekick at W&H. It actually would have served the character well.

 

[Taake]

Well, he might have dropped by for a cuppa 😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Exactly.. in a way that serviced the story as opposed to him being proverbially chained to W&H and forced onto the show.

 

[Aud]

Overall, the decision to move AI into W&H was closer to good than it was to bad.

Conceptually I think it was a good move to take the team to W&H, even if it didn't really make a whole lot of sense in terms of continuity (I mean, would the members of AI really be so easily tempted by their seasons-long enemy?). It gave us a fresh new set while also resetting some characters that had gotten rather stale. As much as I liked the Hyperion Hotel, by the end of S4, it was just irredeemably tainted with all the Jasmine/Connor stuff, so a change of setting was more than welcome. By moving the team into W&H, the writers were able to maintain one of the central characters of the show (the city of L.A. itself) while putting a fresh spin on something the audience was already familiar with (W&H). What I'm saying is, the show and the characters needed a change. Too much of a change would've been too jarring for viewers, so whatever alternative they might've gone with as opposed to W&H, it probably would not have worked as well. If they stayed at the Hyperion, things just wouldn't have evolved.

I will say there were some things that didn't work for me. In particular, I didn't really buy that all of them would or should make the transition so easily. For example, the point of Gunn's character is sort of that he is a warrior, and he keeps fighting the good fight even if there is no end in sight. Although initially haunted by his inability to protect his sister, the writers seemed to have pretty much forgotten about her after her death. Without that, there is no redemptive element to Gunn's story, and that's part of why he just never seemed to fit in with the rest of the AI team. Giving him this uber-brain didn't help matters; it was a forced contrivance to prevent him from becoming utterly useless at W&H. I honestly think it would've been better if, at the end of S4, the writers had had the courage to say that at least one of the AI team members was not on board, and quit when the rest of the gang signed on with W&H. This would've been a good opportunity to write Gunn out of the show, although perhaps they were contractually obligated to keep JAR on for another season.

Exactly.. in a way that serviced the story as opposed to him being proverbially chained to W&H and forced onto the show.

Honestly, it was obvious from BTVS S4 on that Spike's character had become so popular with audiences, they were willing to use any excuse, no matter how contrived, to keep him around. (It astonishes me that the Scoobies allowed him to stick around after what he did to Willow in S3, and that they somehow managed not to stake him in all the years they were acquainted with him.) It wouldn't have mattered what happened in ATS S5; they would've found a way to bring Spike in. Still, ATS S5 Spike was an exponential improvement to BTVS S6-7 Spike, so I can't complain too much.

 

[Blaze]

I think it was almost a necessary change at that point, not only to keep the show fresh after the disaster that was s4, but also as a character development stand point. AI couldn't defeat W&H from the outside, so they had to go on the inside. Overall, I like the idea, but some of the execution was poor. I think they had to develop things more, too much changed with the characters between s4 and s5, it seems like they just did some easy fixes, in a very similar way as Buffy s6 and s7 where the continuity is poor. Except here I think s4 of AtS is the culprit, they toyed with some of the characters so much that they dug a hole and had a hard time getting a nice continuity with s5. But once we get past that, s5 is a pretty strong season. It's definitely interesting that they explored W&H from the inside, I wish more was done with it, but I also think it was a necessary season for AtS.

@Aud brings a great point. It would have been better if one of the member refused to join W&H, Gunn would have been the perfect candidate. They wouldn't even need to write him out, but perhaps show the other side of the medal where Gunn is still fighting against the W&H. It would put a nice perspective as to what is right and what is wrong, and where the lines are.

As for Spike, I think he makes s5 better. But of course I'm not one of those viewers who completely dislikes him, but I do like him better on AtS. He has awesome chemistry with the cast, and with Angel. He was a nice addition in my opinion.

 

[VisionBoy]

It would have been better if one of the member refused to join W&H, Gunn would have been the perfect candidate.

Also would have worked well leading up to his anger towards Angel, blaming him for what happened to him in "After the Fall".

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I thought the willingness for AI to work for Wolfram and Hart (and also the willingness of Wolfram and Hart to hire AI) verged just on this side of believability for me throughout S5. It was on a tight rope and it pushed the limit of my ability to believe it could happen. I struggled with it 2/3 of the season when I first watched it.

As for if it was a good idea, well, on the one hand, it seemed like it was a good move in hindsight, since they would never have been capable of striking such a deep blow against the senior partners by killing the circle of the black thorn without having been on the inside. Then again, LA was plunged into hell afterwards apparently, and I can't imagine that was a desirable consequence (I haven't read those comics though). Stepping away from the story, I did enjoy the change as a viewer. Working for their primary enemies initiated some rather fascinating sequences in the larger story arc and introduced a few new twists on the nature of some characters' internal conflicts. And watching them run a large corporate law firm was interesting and fun in and of itself. So I think the benefits outweighed the negatives here for me, even if it was a little hard to believe. Despite the flaws I think S5 was overall my favorite season of Angel.

Regarding Spike, in general he has never bothered me too much, but in Angel S5 he began to be a little annoying, partly because his persistent badgering of Angel was so unremitting and partly because I was bothered by the fact that he hadn't changed at all despite getting a soul (which confused me about the nature of the difference between vampire demon and the original person they replaced) nor after having gone through what seemed like experiences he could grow from in Buffy S7. It wasn't his presence that bothered me so much as these things I just mentioned. Spike did offer plenty of amusing moments as always, but still. 
And I'd also add I didn't like the change that working for W&H brought on in Gunn.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

partly because his persistent badgering of Angel was so unremitting

That is what kills the season for me. Snarky Spike is good in small doses and it was the constant barrage. The later part of the season is much better. Up until that point the show never felt the way Buffy felt. In that last season tonally it was very reminiscent of Buffy.

 

[VisionBoy]

Overall I'd say the change of scenery was a good thing, however there were times when being in the offices so much made it feel a bit... I dunno, sterile, cold. Even the opening credits; there's so many scenes of people walking around the offices holding files and stuff, I'm glad they added more ass kicking clips later on, because it was looking a bit like a new incarnation of Law and Order.

Character wise, I think it did provide a lot of new ground for them to explore. Except for Gunn's super lawyer brain boost arc, which I didn't like. I spent a good portion of that season wanting the old Gunn back; it came across to me like they wanted J. August Richard to play a new character.

For the story as a whole, yes, good move. W&H were always the big bad; but so I think so long as AI was on the outside, they would have remained the background mwah ha ha-ers and Angel would have just carried on fighting whatever hell spawn W&H sent his way. I think he needed to get into the belly of the beast for the big guns themselves to take such drastic action and by doing that, the stakes were raised considerably higher IMO.

 

[Aud]

Regarding Spike, in general he has never bothered me too much, but in Angel S5 he began to be a little annoying, partly because his persistent badgering of Angel was so unremitting and partly because I was bothered by the fact that he hadn't changed at all despite getting a soul (which confused me about the nature of the difference between vampire demon and the original person they replaced) nor after having gone through what seemed like experiences he could grow from in Buffy S7. It wasn't his presence that bothered me so much as these things I just mentioned. Spike did offer plenty of amusing moments as always, but still.

I agree. I mean it's always been something of a running joke that Spike seems to do everything Angel does, but the whole "the Shanshu might not even be about Angel anymore" thing really annoyed me as well. And yes, the puzzling lack of change between souled and unsouled Spike has also bothered me, although in ATS S5 I think Spike does have a few throwaway lines of dialogue about wanting to help and do right and what have you, if that helps at all.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

but the whole "the Shanshu might not even be about Angel anymore" thing really annoyed me as well.

Yes, Spike not having changed in any real sense made the Shanshu 'confusion' really hard to believe. Were we seriously supposed to believe this selfish, self-absorbed Spike of S5 might have been the champion from the prophecy instead of Angel? I rewatched S5 recently, and at points it was easier to believe that the whole thing was intended for humor's sake by the writers. That seemed more believable sometimes than the idea that the writers actually took this plot point seriously. And I'm not a Spike hater in general, not at all.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The whole Spike and Shanshu thing makes perfect sense to me, but.. it has more to do with behind the scenes things and not the story in general.

 

[Silverspike]

Yes, Spike not having changed in any real sense made the Shanshu 'confusion' really hard to believe. Were we seriously supposed to believe this selfish, self-absorbed Spike of S5 might have been the champion from the prophecy instead of Angel? I rewatched S5 recently, and at points it was easier to believe that the whole thing was intended for humor's sake by the writers. That seemed more believable sometimes than the idea that the writers actually took this plot point seriously. And I'm not a Spike hater in general, not at all.

If I remember correctly that was all part of the storyline that was meant to push Angel into doubting his purpose in life and his 'mission' so to speak.

 

[Aud]

I rewatched S5 recently, and at points it was easier to believe that the whole thing was intended for humor's sake by the writers.

I agree that it seemed like really bad misdirection more than anything else. I think it just annoyed me to an inordinate degree because the writers seemed to want to make BTVS S7 the Spike Show, not the Buffy Show. Potentially giving him the Shanshu on ATS would have also taken the show away from Angel and handed it over--once again--to Spike.

If I remember correctly that was all part of the storyline that was meant to push Angel into doubting his purpose in life and his 'mission' so to speak.

You're right. But the audience doesn't know that until several episodes in, and while this "misdirection" was going on it was pretty frustrating.


But we digress from the main thread. I think by the end of the season, Spike settled into the team just fine. It was in the earlier episodes, when he was still incorporeal and didn't want to do anything except argue with Angel about whom Buffy loved, that I didn't think his character would find a good place on this show.

 

[Silverspike]

"Potentially giving him the Shanshu on ATS would have also taken the show away from Angel and handed it over--once again--to Spike."

but they didn't and that was never seriously on the cards.

"You're right. But the audience doesn't know that until several episodes in, and while this "misdirection" was going on it was pretty frustrating."

err I think that was the whole point of it?

 

[Aud]

"Potentially giving him the Shanshu on ATS would have also taken the show away from Angel and handed it over--once again--to Spike."

but they didn't and that was never seriously on the cards.

"You're right. But the audience doesn't know that until several episodes in, and while this "misdirection" was going on it was pretty frustrating."

err I think that was the whole point of it?

Just because random story threads don't amount to anything doesn't mean audiences can't dislike them or think they didn't work. If you actually read my entire posts above, you'll see that my frustration wasn't with the fact that this was the (mis)direction of the story at the time; my frustration was that the show runners didn't seem to have learned from the mistakes of BTVS S7. And if you read through to the end of my post, I also say that I think Spike settled into ATS S5 just fine eventually, just not at first.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Just speaking for myself, you have a point silverspike (your response to me). It was Lindsay ' s plan for revenge against Angel, not an actual meta plot point for the large arc. Watching Angel actually doubt himself because of spike of all people (AtS S5 spike I mean) seemed absurd, but angel is a radically self-doubting and existentially insecure person.