Silverspike
Scooby
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,565
The Hot Topic: Angel Inc & W&H
- Thread starter Taake
- Start date
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 26,460
I never said I didn't. Season four was great, and I loved the ending about them ending world peace, et al, but it couldn't (and shouldnt) continue after that. Therefor once Cordy was impregnated with the demon spawn there was nowhere else to go. That was the end of it. The series was destroyed. You can't unjump the shark and having Jasmine and the results of was the end of it.
(but I also think Buffy should have ended with The Gift.. Buffy and Angel hung around longer to make money, not for storytelling purposes.. both shows diverted their natural endings)
Silverspike
Scooby
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,565
Where as I (and I suspect quite a few others) enjoyed the seasons that came after.
Skanky Vamp
I dont care WHO liked it. I didn't. That was the question. Now, it if the question was did Silverspike (and a few others) like it, I might have answered differently.
So, to bring this back to the topic - did you think the move to W & H was good for Angel inc/the show?
@Silverspike
🙂
@Silverspike
🙂
Silverspike
Scooby
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,565
Yes I do. Gave it a fresh start and look.
Nice to actually be able to see the actors more clearly for a start. 😀
Nice to actually be able to see the actors more clearly for a start. 😀
Haha good point. The Hyperion is kind of drab in comparison.
Personally I like and dislike the move. I think the move was a breath of fresh air, I think Spike was a breath of fresh air, but I also felt like the season struggled a bit to find its place partly because it felt so very different from previous seasons (maybe it's the daylight 😉). I think it might have worked out better if, like often with TV, they'd had more time to work it out. But then I tend to think that pretty much all shows struggle around season 5, it's kind of a make it or break it type of season where changes are often needed to the standard format and either they pull them off or they don't. I like season 5, but I also think that the plot of moving them to W & H was a major challenge and that while they pulled it off fine for the most part it wasn't flawless.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Well where do I start. I know this is waay OT but I can't let half of this lie. 🙁
And that one time where a woman who he didn't know appealed to him for help and he tried to help her for no real selfish reason. She was a stranger, an outsider like himself, but that's about it. If this aultruism hadn't then bitten Angel in the ass there's little doubt in my mind that he would've then started to help other people along the way.
No, it was motivated by Whistler and Buffy. Whistler is the one who puts Angel on his path- he asks what Angel wants to become, he's a vampire in a unique position to use his powers to help somebody. I doubt Angel went to Sunnydale with the intent to date Buffy, he went to help her against the Master rising. To insist that it was just for a girl is deeply disingenuious.
Angel has never been in love before Buffy so I tend to give him a bit of a pass since Buffy sin't any ordinary teenage girl, she's connected to something old and powerful that makes her more than human.
It's also interesting that you don't like this but are fine with (andf enjoy) S6 Spuffy, where we see a mentally disturbed (depressed, self-hating) young woman sleeping with a vampire. A lot of this relationship borders on nonconsensual (see 'Dead Things') and then goes to rape. So you have a problem with statutary rape that's been depicted between two loving people (in which Buffy is actually the assertive one) but enjoy the s6 stuff? Funny that.
Wow, 200+ years of Hell (put there by the woman you love more than anything no less) for one thoughtless act of weakness. The quality of mercy is not you. 🙁
See two+ years of Hell.
Also see ALL OF XANDER'S behaviour (getting Faith to kill Angel in 'Revelations'), plus Buffy's tearful declaration to Angel in Amends, and Giles very cold treatment of Angel for the things that ANGELUS did.
Nobody really gives Angel a pass- at least not compared to S7 where the only people who treat Spike with anything approaching the same distain are Dawn (once, briefly) and Giles. Xander and Willow don't seem to care one way or the other, which is so OT it's startling.
He knows that Buffy isn't going to be safe- she's the slayer. He wants her to have normal relations OUTSIDE of the slaying, which she can't with a vampire. He knows it, and so does she, eventually, which is why she then moves on with Rley for a time.
Again, no. It's about Buffy until Doyle shows up and acts as another Whistler. S1 of Angel is all about Angel distancing himself from Buffy and her life- finding his own purpose. Doyle (and then Cordelia) are a big part of that.
The difference is Angel moved on from Buffy because he knew that he came back from Hell for a reason, a reason beyond her, so he seperated his life from hers. Spike got his soul for Buffy so he doesn't really think of himself as 'cursed' or in need of redemption. He still hasn't moved on from her, he doesn't see (or want actually) a purpose outside of her. (That makes S5 of Angel an anomoly in Spike's behaviour/growth, which is why I actually like him in it)
And also nobody can undo the things they've done, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try surely. It certainly isn't pointless,
If somebody says 'I feel badly about all those things, but whatever.' it just makes them a crappy person, no matter what.
From what we see in 'Fool For Love' William believes in love not drama. He's quiet, sensitive and poetic in nature- he's shy, he doesn't LIKE being the centre of attention. He just wants the girl.
When he gets turned he rejects this and never goes back- even after he gets his soul- which I find...troubling. William seems to subsumed totally by the Spike personna he created.
Spike in S2 helped to save the world because of a girl, as did Spike in S5. Just a different girl is all. There isn't that much difference in behaviour between the two, simply what motivates them.
Angel didn't do anything, he just failed to stop them. He let a bunch of evil folks get their comeupance. Morally wrong? Absolutely, but very different from how you worded it.
I'm sorry, what? 😕
We're talking about 'reformed' Faith presumably because it's in the 'reformed Spike' context. I'm just gonna breeze past the 'selfish' (who does she bust out of prison to save? She goes to Sunnydale- walking into an apocalypse- pretty much because Willow says that she's needed. Yeah, selfish bitch.🙄) and 'self-aggrandizing' (I forgot how much Faith thinks of herself compared to Buffy...)
So 'rude'. So who is Faith rude to besides Connor? ( who was ATTACKING her when she threatened him btw. She was there to save Angel, not to brawl with a bratty superbeing.)
Let's see Gunn? Nope. Cordelia? Nope. Wesley? She works with him and even when he pushes her hard she doesn't really push back until she snaps (and when she does she stops herself)
Fred? Well, maybe she cuts her off a bit because she's 'girl on a missio'n but it would be as stretch to call it rude.
Angel or Willow? Nope. She's actually incredibly self-depreciating around Angel when he attempts to thank her ('Well, that vice is plenty versa') considering she almost dies three times trying to take out Angelus.
Also how she acts around Connor when he admits that he screwed up. ('That just makes you one of us.')
And when she finds out that Willow and co. failed to tell her that she might've been targeted by the ultimate evil she just brushes it off. ('Forget it. It's cool, I get by.')
In Sunnydale, she's rude to Spike (when she thinks is evil) but not to Buffy, not really.
Her defenses are up but she makes it clear that she's just there to help. She doesn't wave the fact that she saved Angel's life in Buffy's face. Although when Buffy pushes her its in her nature to push back. (see 'Empty Places' when Buffy punches her and she doesn't stop her)
She also Faith being the only one to go after Buffy to try and apologise. Is that selfish? or arrogant?
Oh, and she's rude to Kennedy, but Kennedy really had it coming for a long time.
Basically Faith isn't close to being the jackass that soulled Spike is, nowhere near.
There really aren't as many difference in characteristics as you'd think- beleive me I've gone back and checked. His actions are different sure, but a lot of his behaviour is far, far too similar considering that he's got humanity in him now.
Put it this way, Spike has being killing, marauding and god knows whating for 120+ years. Spike has also been in love with Buffy for 2 years.
So when he gets his soul back which of these two aspects of his character should define his existance?
If you're writing S7 then of course the utterly illogical answer is his love of Buffy, not the memories of the terrible things he's done. 😡
To answer the actual question- after Jasmine and the stakes having been raised so high, they really needed something fresh. I can't see Team Angel going back to the streets of LA. After ending 'world peace' they needed something with more scope and scale.
I also would agree that S5 was one of the better seasons (up there with S2 certainly) but I thought the latter half was definitly the stronger. The first half seemed too inconsequencial for sure, the darkness of the later episodes was much richer.
And that one time where a woman who he didn't know appealed to him for help and he tried to help her for no real selfish reason. She was a stranger, an outsider like himself, but that's about it. If this aultruism hadn't then bitten Angel in the ass there's little doubt in my mind that he would've then started to help other people along the way.
No, it was motivated by Whistler and Buffy. Whistler is the one who puts Angel on his path- he asks what Angel wants to become, he's a vampire in a unique position to use his powers to help somebody. I doubt Angel went to Sunnydale with the intent to date Buffy, he went to help her against the Master rising. To insist that it was just for a girl is deeply disingenuious.
Angel has never been in love before Buffy so I tend to give him a bit of a pass since Buffy sin't any ordinary teenage girl, she's connected to something old and powerful that makes her more than human.
It's also interesting that you don't like this but are fine with (andf enjoy) S6 Spuffy, where we see a mentally disturbed (depressed, self-hating) young woman sleeping with a vampire. A lot of this relationship borders on nonconsensual (see 'Dead Things') and then goes to rape. So you have a problem with statutary rape that's been depicted between two loving people (in which Buffy is actually the assertive one) but enjoy the s6 stuff? Funny that.
Wow, 200+ years of Hell (put there by the woman you love more than anything no less) for one thoughtless act of weakness. The quality of mercy is not you. 🙁
See two+ years of Hell.
Also see ALL OF XANDER'S behaviour (getting Faith to kill Angel in 'Revelations'), plus Buffy's tearful declaration to Angel in Amends, and Giles very cold treatment of Angel for the things that ANGELUS did.
Nobody really gives Angel a pass- at least not compared to S7 where the only people who treat Spike with anything approaching the same distain are Dawn (once, briefly) and Giles. Xander and Willow don't seem to care one way or the other, which is so OT it's startling.
He knows that Buffy isn't going to be safe- she's the slayer. He wants her to have normal relations OUTSIDE of the slaying, which she can't with a vampire. He knows it, and so does she, eventually, which is why she then moves on with Rley for a time.
Again, no. It's about Buffy until Doyle shows up and acts as another Whistler. S1 of Angel is all about Angel distancing himself from Buffy and her life- finding his own purpose. Doyle (and then Cordelia) are a big part of that.
The difference is Angel moved on from Buffy because he knew that he came back from Hell for a reason, a reason beyond her, so he seperated his life from hers. Spike got his soul for Buffy so he doesn't really think of himself as 'cursed' or in need of redemption. He still hasn't moved on from her, he doesn't see (or want actually) a purpose outside of her. (That makes S5 of Angel an anomoly in Spike's behaviour/growth, which is why I actually like him in it)
And also nobody can undo the things they've done, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try surely. It certainly isn't pointless,
If somebody says 'I feel badly about all those things, but whatever.' it just makes them a crappy person, no matter what.
From what we see in 'Fool For Love' William believes in love not drama. He's quiet, sensitive and poetic in nature- he's shy, he doesn't LIKE being the centre of attention. He just wants the girl.
When he gets turned he rejects this and never goes back- even after he gets his soul- which I find...troubling. William seems to subsumed totally by the Spike personna he created.
Spike in S2 helped to save the world because of a girl, as did Spike in S5. Just a different girl is all. There isn't that much difference in behaviour between the two, simply what motivates them.
Angel didn't do anything, he just failed to stop them. He let a bunch of evil folks get their comeupance. Morally wrong? Absolutely, but very different from how you worded it.
I'm sorry, what? 😕
We're talking about 'reformed' Faith presumably because it's in the 'reformed Spike' context. I'm just gonna breeze past the 'selfish' (who does she bust out of prison to save? She goes to Sunnydale- walking into an apocalypse- pretty much because Willow says that she's needed. Yeah, selfish bitch.🙄) and 'self-aggrandizing' (I forgot how much Faith thinks of herself compared to Buffy...)
So 'rude'. So who is Faith rude to besides Connor? ( who was ATTACKING her when she threatened him btw. She was there to save Angel, not to brawl with a bratty superbeing.)
Let's see Gunn? Nope. Cordelia? Nope. Wesley? She works with him and even when he pushes her hard she doesn't really push back until she snaps (and when she does she stops herself)
Fred? Well, maybe she cuts her off a bit because she's 'girl on a missio'n but it would be as stretch to call it rude.
Angel or Willow? Nope. She's actually incredibly self-depreciating around Angel when he attempts to thank her ('Well, that vice is plenty versa') considering she almost dies three times trying to take out Angelus.
Also how she acts around Connor when he admits that he screwed up. ('That just makes you one of us.')
And when she finds out that Willow and co. failed to tell her that she might've been targeted by the ultimate evil she just brushes it off. ('Forget it. It's cool, I get by.')
In Sunnydale, she's rude to Spike (when she thinks is evil) but not to Buffy, not really.
Her defenses are up but she makes it clear that she's just there to help. She doesn't wave the fact that she saved Angel's life in Buffy's face. Although when Buffy pushes her its in her nature to push back. (see 'Empty Places' when Buffy punches her and she doesn't stop her)
She also Faith being the only one to go after Buffy to try and apologise. Is that selfish? or arrogant?
Oh, and she's rude to Kennedy, but Kennedy really had it coming for a long time.
Basically Faith isn't close to being the jackass that soulled Spike is, nowhere near.
There really aren't as many difference in characteristics as you'd think- beleive me I've gone back and checked. His actions are different sure, but a lot of his behaviour is far, far too similar considering that he's got humanity in him now.
Put it this way, Spike has being killing, marauding and god knows whating for 120+ years. Spike has also been in love with Buffy for 2 years.
So when he gets his soul back which of these two aspects of his character should define his existance?
If you're writing S7 then of course the utterly illogical answer is his love of Buffy, not the memories of the terrible things he's done. 😡
To answer the actual question- after Jasmine and the stakes having been raised so high, they really needed something fresh. I can't see Team Angel going back to the streets of LA. After ending 'world peace' they needed something with more scope and scale.
I also would agree that S5 was one of the better seasons (up there with S2 certainly) but I thought the latter half was definitly the stronger. The first half seemed too inconsequencial for sure, the darkness of the later episodes was much richer.
AnthonyCordova
you brought up some points i wanted to make too.
Thread topics, there for a reason. Please keep to them and feel free to start other threads regarding the topics you wish to discuss.
bespangeled
Scooby
Looks great on the little black dress of fandom - Spike. 😀
Topher - start up a thread, and Anthony, you and I can have at it, along with anyone else interested. Can you move Anthony's post and my answer? Is this a mod thing - to split threads?
