The Hot Topic: Did Dawn kill Joyce?

[Taake]

As the title says - did Dawn kill Joyce?

Let's break it down - Dawn is technically a key, a shimmering ball of green energy. This is merged (?) with Buffy's blood by monks in order to magically create a person they can be sure the Slayer will protect with her very life. But in order to insert this person into the Slayer's life they have to change the memories of a great number of people in order to make the transition seemless.

Obviously the greatest, most comprehensive changes are made to Buffy and those closest to her, and arguably - Joyce.

Dollhouse has an interesting episode dealing briefly with the power of the maternal instinct and (in their case through technology but in the Buffyverse magic) changing or messing with the physicality of being a mother. In the episode we see that nothing in Echo, even as a wiped Doll, can override the strenght of her maternal instinct. She doesn't even know who she is, but she knows she has to be with and protect that baby. Being made a mother, even through science, has fundamentally changed her.

This brings us to Joyce. Buffy gains a sister, yes, a big change, certainly. But Joyce becomes a mother again. She is the person closest to Dawn because she is made to believe that she gave life to Dawn, that she carried Dawn... these memories are extensive in their emotional impact.

Could one assume that it is the creation/arrival of Dawn and the changes forced upon Joyce's physical and mental being - that brought about Joyce's illness? That maybe all of that change was too much for a non-magical human to take?

Buffy isn't fully human in that sense, she's likely to be more resiliant to magical changes, and the Scoobies and the others wouldn't have to be changed as extensively as Joyce had to be... so in short - is Dawn's existence the reason or part of the reason that Joyce had to die?

 

[EVIL UU]

Well, with magic there's always a price. It's like physics. You just have to balance the elements, Willow says. Fire and water, light and dark, life and death and so on. Create life, another life is taken. Magic gives Buffy life, magic kills Tara. I see no reason why this rule wouldn't apply to Dawn. Life created, life taken, balance achieved. Makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I would say it was the full reason. To me it always seemed a given that Dawn's 'birth' was what causes Joyce's death. It could open up a larger debate as to what are, and where do, maternal instincts come from. Because theoretically the monks had it alter that as well. And that, moreso than memories alone, is what (IMHO) would have caused the damages to her.

 

[thetopher]

Magic is all about balance, that's true, but Dawn wasn't created from nothing, she was simply changed from one thing into another- that's not 'new life' like resurrecting Buffy, that's...transmutation or something.

On the show, all magic is shown to have residue when Buffy did that 'meditation' thing right?
Wouldn't any 'magical damage' have shown up during Buffy's trip? I mean, she would've at least seen something wrong with Joyce, but there's nothing, and a week or so later she's going into hospital because of a brain tumour.
Doesn't seem likely to me.
But I guess, thematically Joyce was going to die as soon as Dawn showed up. Joyce dying is the officila end of Buffy's childhood- she's finished growing up. Dawn represents her adult responsibilities- she has to be friend, sister and Mom to Dawn.

So, in a way, Dawn did kill Joyce- but only in a metaphoric way.

 

[EVIL UU]

Magic is all about balance, that's true, but Dawn wasn't created from nothing, she was simply changed from one thing into another- that's not 'new life' like resurrecting Buffy, that's...transmutation or something.

So you're saying that the key, energy basically, was alive? I don't buy it.

 

[thetopher]

So you're saying that the key, energy basically, was alive? I don't buy it.

The monks like, totally said it was living energy. You're calling that monk a liar? 😉
I'm fairly certain all they did was give the glowey ball a human form and some awareness- they didn't 'give it life' or anything.

 

[EVIL UU]

Monks man, I don't trust 'em. 😀

 

[Taake]

The monks like, totally said it was living energy. You're calling that monk a liar? 😉
I'm fairly certain all they did was give the glowey ball a human form and some awareness- they didn't 'give it life' or anything.

But in order for that form and awareness to fit into the Slayer's contextual setting they did have to do a major magical warp of everyone who ought to ever have been in touch with Dawn - from classmates to Buffy herself. So even if they didn't give her life per say, they had to create a specific life lived already, by magical means. That's a cost that's going to have to be taken from somewhere else if the verse stressed balance is to be kept. (Take Superstar, where everyones' memories are changed, Jonathan creates a demon as a cost...)

 

[Lyri]

I absolutely LOATH this whole goddamn theory.

I have seen people use this so-called theory as proof that Dawn should be killed in cold blood without even a second though - even now, years and years after Joyce's death, they still say that Dawn 'needs to pay' for Joyce's death. Like she's the one wholly responsible for not only her existence, but her existence apparently putting and end to Joyce's.

A lot of people seem incapable of understanding that Dawn herself is completely innocent in this whole thing. She didn't ask to get made (whoa, Rocket flashback, lol) she didn't ask to exist, but she does and she has no control over anything that brought her into being. It's sort of like blaming the child because the mother suffered complications during childbirth or something.

Also, I think this whole idea is completely insane and without merit.

There is quite possibly HUNDREDS of people who's memories had to be altered to include Dawn - people like hospital staff for Dawn's birth, Joyce and Hank's family and friends, school faculty, friends, doctor's offices, dentists, hairdressers, even the Council, the list is endless.

If Joyce's illness was a direct result of her mind being altered to include Dawn, then she shouldn't be the only one affected. Even in Buffy's close circle of friends, someone else might have shown symptoms that this was a risk. But they didn't.

I think, if this was actually what we were supposed to take from this, there would have been a bigger deal made of it. I think we would have had to watch Buffy find that out, that her mother died because her sister is alive. That would have been something that Buffy would have had to reconcile herself with, come to terms with, so that she would still be in a state of mind to sacrifice herself for Dawn in 'The Gift'. But it wasn't even a passing thought between the characters. Given the conversation going on over in the other thread and Giles' unwavering decision to kill Dawn to save everyone, he should have at least brought the point up, if he thought it was a possibility. Because Giles is that kind of person, the person who makes the hard decisions, the one who does what's necessary and the one who thinks about the worst possible scenarios in any given situation.

 

[Taake]

I think, if this was actually what we were supposed to take from this, there would have been a bigger deal made of it. I think we would have had to watch Buffy find that out, that her mother died because her sister is alive. That would have been something that Buffy would have had to reconcile herself with, come to terms with, so that she would still be in a state of mind to sacrifice herself for Dawn in 'The Gift'. But it wasn't even a passing thought between the characters. Given the conversation going on over in the other thread and Giles' unwavering decision to kill Dawn to save everyone, he should have at least brought the point up, if he thought it was a possibility. Because Giles is that kind of person, the person who makes the hard decisions, the one who does what's necessary and the one who thinks about the worst possible scenarios in any given situation.

I think the opposite. I think this was specifically avoided because it's an incredibly tough thing to deal with for Buffy and that's why a bigger deal wasn't made of it, because they weren't willing or capable of handling the matter.

And possibly because Dawn's innocence, which I don't argue, could be a hard sale.

It's not the same being a mother the mother of someone as being a person around them so I disagree that someone else would have had to show symptoms as well.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It's not the same being a mother the mother of someone as being a person around them so I disagree that someone else would have had to show symptoms as well.

That was my point, if physiologically they had to alter Joyce as well to 'implant' the maternal instincts. Would the bond be as strong if it was only memories?

And I agree, they (the writers) wanted Dawn to be a sympathetic character. If they overtly stated that it was because of Dawn that Joyce died it could easily alienate her from fans. Although, reading what Lyri wrote above I will not say that Dawn killed Joyce, but the monks. In my mind, the monks were responsible for Joyce's death.

 

[Lyri]

Just because Joyce was Dawn's mother doesn't mean that her memories were altered differently than anyone else's. They all went through the process. Yes, Joyce had to love Dawn like a daughter, but so did Hank. Buffy had to love her like a sister. Why weren't either of them affected? I don't like the idea that Joyce's memories were changed differently to everyone else's. I don't like the idea that Joyce got some sort of special treatment just because the monks were giving her a daughter.

Joyce was incidental in the decision to create Dawn - she was a second thought in this process. Buffy was the key, pardon the pun, figure in Dawn's creation, it was her love that had to be the purest, the most deep. She was the one who the monks really went to town on. Joyce would have been given the same treatment as Hank, Giles, Xander and all the rest of them. I don't think there was anything done to her that wasn't at least done to Hank. 
Also, the show is not scared of tackling 'big' issues. Suicide, murder, attempted rape, actual rape (or at least implying that). I don't think they handled any of them particularly well, but they aren't scared of facing them. If they REALLY wanted to imply that Dawn's existence was directly responsible for Joyce's illness and subsequent death, then they would have done that. If they wanted to keep the innocence of Dawn intact, then all it would have taken was a line from Buffy pointing out that Dawn isn't to blame for being here, that it was the monks that brought her into being and it was the monks that messed with everyone's heads. We probably then would have seen Buffy making sure that all the monk really were wiped out, or she would have done it for them.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I dont know.. I cannot comment any further as I am not a woman nor mother. I just know that women go thru alot of physiologically changes during, and after, pregnancy. So I just always assumed it was related to either they happening artificially or not happening at all.

 

[Lyri]

But Joyce never actually went through any of that when it comes to Dawn - they gave her the memories of it. The memories are fake, completely fabricated. Yes, they had to APPEAR real, but the fact remains that they weren't. Implanting memories, no matter what those memories are, is the same process, whether for the mother of the child being 'invented' or the woman who cut Dawn's hair when she was five.

Buffy and Dawn and Willow and everyone else, they take the memories they were given as fact, as the truth now, and at the end of the day, they're right. The memories they were given equates to Dawn's entire life, so they are true and real to them and I believe that as well. If Dawn and Buffy remember Dawn hiding plates under her bed when she was five until they grow fur, then that's what happened. But it doesn't change the fact that the memory isn't real.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And thats my point.. does memory make it real? Does the fact Joyce remembers being pregnant, remembers the changes her body went through, remembers how it felt.. does that memory make it real? Everyone else is immaterial.

You said "so they are true and real to them and I believe that as well" but then "it doesn't change the fact that the memory isn't real." but if they are true and real to them, then it's true. It's only not true to the audience. But to me its more than just memories it's that bond between mother and daughter and how that was created. I don't know. It fascinates me, I mean in general, not just the Joyce/Dawn thing, so.. I think Joyce's BODY would know the truth, even if her memories did not. And I think that is what created the problem.

 

[Lyri]

No, they know that the memories aren't real, they had that moment of clarity, they just chose to ignore that part and carry on as normal. Same as I do.

Joyce had a brain tumor. That is a physical thing. Something like that does not spring up over night. It was probably working on Joyce for a long time before she sought treatment. The first time we see some sort of manifestation of the effects it was having on her was 'Out of My Mind'. If Buffy tells Dawn in 'Blood Ties' what she was created 'six months ago', that episode being episode 13 of the season, then 'Out of My Mind' can't have been more than a month since Dawn's creation. I'm not a doctor, but from what I've gathered, it can take from months to years for a brain tumor to cause physical symptoms. It doesn't seem plausible to me that there was enough time for a brain tumor to not only grow but to present physical symptoms in the time since Dawn's creation.

 

[sk]

I'm with Lyri on this one.
The show makes a big deal out of the fact that Joyce's sickness is natural and not something Buffy can fight.
Don't see why that shouldn't be true.

Don't even think that we see that magic should take a life because one is created.
We see some consequences of spells of course. But that it specifically would take a life for creating a life? I can't remember that anyway.
Did that hitchhiker demon that come with Buffy's resurrection killed someone for example? (I seriously can't remember, so perhaps it did)

/SK

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well, with magic there's always a price. It's like physics. You just have to balance the elements, Willow says. Fire and water, light and dark, life and death and so on. Create life, another life is taken. Magic gives Buffy life, magic kills Tara. I see no reason why this rule wouldn't apply to Dawn. Life created, life taken, balance achieved. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Excellent point. I think it's very possible that the creation of a life out of the ball of energy was enough that the universe decided that it had to take a life to balance things out. I don't think it is quite fair that it had to be someone Buffy was close to, but it definitely makes sense to me.

 

[Buffonia96]

I think it is very possible that Dawn contributed to Joyce's well being. Although the development of her brain tumour was something that couldn't be controlled, the discovery that her own daughter isn't entirely her own and that she used to be a form of energy would have been an unfathomable concept. I think the stress and shock of the situation certainly didn't help Joyce and it could easily have contributed to the worsening of her health in the least. She still loved Dawn like a daughter but to find out that all those memories of giving birth and raising Dawn were not real, it would've been incredibly painful. I also agree that Joyce's maternal bond is one of the strongest relationships that anyone would have had with Dawn, which would have made it even worse for her. It's an interesting concept that i have not really given much thought to before! The idea that to make a life, one has to be taken makes sense to me too, I never thought of it like that.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I don't blame Dawn, it wasn't her fault she was created. I blame the monks. It's completely possible that altering memories could have affected Joyce and no one else. I think Dawn's creation and Joyce's brain tumor in season 5 are connected. Of course there are off screen reasons for why it happened but it could make sense in the show too. If they are completely separate coincidences that's fine with me too, but I think it was a direct result of what the monks did.