The Hot Topic: Did Dawn kill Joyce?

[AnthonyCordova]

I could see a possible argument both ways. After reading everyone's comments, I am more inclined to believe Joyce's death had nothing to do with Dawn. As sk73 said, "The show makes a big deal out of the fact that Joyce's sickness is natural and not something Buffy can fight". I personally like the neat and clean resolution to Joyce's role in the show because of this. Is it possible to peal back some layers and find other, perhaps deeper explanations for what happens on the show, here specifically on this topic and others? Of course. The show is rich enough to provide multiple and contradictory perspectives on many topics, and to offer material to suggest the veracity of them all, yet ambiguous enough to not make it completely clear many times what is the more likely perspective. That's part of why I like the show...the possible interpretations are nearly endless, which ensures that we will still enjoy interpreting and analyzing the show for many years to come.

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

I like this theory and it makes sense, but as mentioned before, I honestly believe Joyce's illness had nothing to do with Dawn or any sort of magic. Joss himself has said that Joyce's illness was completely natural. Her death was one of the only deaths on the show that was not caused by anything supernatural, which is why it creates such an impact.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Joss himself has said that Joyce's illness was completely natural.

He also said the cheese and cheese man meant nothing and that's not entirely true either. In fact he has said alot of things that conceptually true but not factually. So I would not use that as a basis for argument.

 

[bespangeled]

Well, with magic there's always a price. It's like physics. You just have to balance the elements, Willow says. Fire and water, light and dark, life and death and so on. Create life, another life is taken. Magic gives Buffy life, magic kills Tara. I see no reason why this rule wouldn't apply to Dawn. Life created, life taken, balance achieved. Makes sense, doesn't it?

That was my point, if physiologically they had to alter Joyce as well to 'implant' the maternal instincts. Would the bond be as strong if it was only memories?

And I agree, they (the writers) wanted Dawn to be a sympathetic character. If they overtly stated that it was because of Dawn that Joyce died it could easily alienate her from fans. Although, reading what Lyri wrote above I will not say that Dawn killed Joyce, but the monks. In my mind, the monks were responsible for Joyce's death.

But Joyce already had maternal instincts - it wasn't like they were trying to implant them in Cordelia. Her instincts needed to broaden along with her knew memories but there was nothing fundamentally different or difficult in that task. Candidly I think it would be harder for Willow since the magic that created Dawn would have been more obvious to her than anyone else. 

Well, with magic there's always a price. It's like physics. You just have to balance the elements, Willow says. Fire and water, light and dark, life and death and so on. Create life, another life is taken. Magic gives Buffy life, magic kills Tara. I see no reason why this rule wouldn't apply to Dawn. Life created, life taken, balance achieved. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Willow used black magic - killed an innocent animal to use it's blood in a magic spell. I believe the rebound from that is what kills Tara. One innocent is killed by Willow, so Willow must suffer the death of another innocent. I don't see this having anything to do with Buffy. After all Buffy was also killed and brought back in season 1 without any apparent balance needed.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Oh good heavens, there are people on this board who blame Dawn for a rainy day.

No, the memory implantation did not kill Joyce. She was diagnosed with a brain tumour which was surgically removed but led to an aneurysm. The impact of her death was that it was not magical at all and therefore, there was nothing that anyone could have done to prevent it. There is no monster to fight, only a lame attempt in "Forever", the episode following "The Body" to resurrect Joyce, but in the end, Dawn makes the right choice and decides to terminate the spell. At that point, she shows herself to be more mature than Willow.

 

[Taake]

Oh good heavens, there are people on this board who blame Dawn for a rainy day.

It's not about blaming Dawn at all, I'm getting a bit sick of this knee-jerk reaction that it's about Dawn hate.

It's a legitimate question in a show where magic often seems to have a price and the creation of Dawn is at major magical costs one would imagine. But it's not Dawn's fault. Dawn didn't ask to stop being a key/glowy ball of energy, Dawn didn't ask for her family, Dawn didn't do anything.

It's about the magic behind Dawn, not Dawn herself.
The confusion between these two is frustrating.

 

[Lyri]

It's not about blaming Dawn at all, I'm getting a bit sick of this knee-jerk reaction that it's about Dawn hate.

It's a legitimate question in a show where magic often seems to have a price and the creation of Dawn is at major magical costs one would imagine. But it's not Dawn's fault. Dawn didn't ask to stop being a key/glowy ball of energy, Dawn didn't ask for her family, Dawn didn't do anything.

It's about the magic behind Dawn, not Dawn herself.
The confusion between these two is frustrating.

Then surely the thread topic should have been 'Did the magic behind Dawn's creation kill Joyce?' not 'Did Dawn kill Joyce?' The title of the thread DOES seem to imply or infer that Dawn herself is or should be blamed for the death of her mother.

But even so, I still don't think it was ever meant to be a point. I don't think we were ever meant to think that it was even a possibility. Maybe it's something that Joss and Co. never even thought about, maybe Joss is out there somewhere, reading threads like this one and thinking 'Gorram it, that could have really been something. That would have been a great storyline, a real obstacle for Buffy to have to overcome. I can't believe I managed to overlook that.' But the fact is that it was overlooked. And I know, I quote Death of the Author constantly, but I do think that this is something that is WAY too big to be left to us to make up our own minds about it. I mean, there wasn't even any sort of throw away comment that we can reference that seems to imply that someone somewhere thought that it was a possibility. This isn't like the Spike/Angel did they/didn't they thing. We have something to base that argument off of.

The fact of the matter is, Joyce died because of complications from having a brain tumor removed. I just don't think there was enough time for a tumor to grow and present physical symptoms in the time since the spell was cast and 'Out of My Mind', which is when we learn that there is something wrong with Joyce. I'm not a doctor, but it just seems like much too short a time.

Dawn's creation being blamed for Joyce's death is a HUGE deal, too huge, I think, for it to be completely ignored within the confines of the show.

 

[Taake]

Then surely the thread topic should have been 'Did the magic behind Dawn's creation kill Joyce?' not 'Did Dawn kill Joyce?' The title of the thread DOES seem to imply or infer that Dawn herself is or should be blamed for the death of her mother.

Fine, I'm guilty of picking a more "sensational" thread headline. It was meant to get attention, it was supposed to be a "hot" topic.

Dawn's creation being blamed for Joyce's death is a HUGE deal, too huge, I think, for it to be completely ignored within the confines of the show.

I don't think it is, but as I've already stated I think they would have shied away from the topic. It would have been very hard for them to write, it would have been hard for Buffy to deal with and it probably would have been a storyline that would have generated even more hate towards an already disliked character.

And as has been stated it was possibly Joss' full intent to have Joyce's death be fully natural, no magic anywhere near it BUT there is also a rich verse and show history with magic having consequences and not being used lightly, by anyone. So for the confines of the show the question is not wholly strange no matter Joss' intent with Joyce's death. This is just a speculation, it's not trying to re-write the show, the fact that Dawn's creation has no major effects, even though the change to her family's history is quite substantial, is just something that has always been a bit overlooked and annoying to me.

Also, I don't think that the "Joyce's death was natural" argument is rock solid. Major changes to Joyce's brain, through magic, could still cause natural changes in terms of a tumor, to my mind because it would effect the natural tissues.

 

[Lyri]

Fine, I'm guilty of picking a more "sensational" thread headline. It was meant to get attention, it was supposed to be a "hot" topic.

I'm just saying, I can understand why people are seeing Dawn hate in this thread. Granted, my suggested title probably wouldn't have bred such a discussion as this one did, but it would have calmed people down a little and stopped some of them from thinking that Dawn hate was the only reason behind the actual question.

I don't think it is, but as I've already stated I think they would have shied away from the topic. It would have been very hard for them to write, it would have been hard for Buffy to deal with and it probably would have been a storyline that would have generated even more hate towards an already disliked character.

Yes, but when was the last time these writers 'shied away' from a hard topic? Rape, attempted rape, pre-meditated murder, changing someone's memories for their own personal gain, theft, robbery, burglary, assault, emotional and psychological manipulation, torture, death of a parent, death of a significant other. Pretty much the only hard topic they haven't touched on is the child being responsible of the parent's death.

The fact that nothing at all was mentioned about Dawn's creation being responsible for Joyce's death tells me all I need to know about the subject.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Or it could have been an issue of Buffy's internal Slayer sense when she first thought Dawn was trying to hurt Joyce she actually was hurting Joyce, but after Joyce learned the truth and accepted her as family it was overlooked, as Joyce pointed out she was innocent and had no knowledge. Why let an innocent preteen girl think she had a hand in her mother's death simply for being her. Buffy would have never mentioned it again, and not told her friends as they could not keep a secret.

 

[Lyri]

Why let an innocent preteen girl think she had a hand in her mother's death simply for being her. Buffy would have never mentioned it again, and not told her friends as they could not keep a secret.

Why did Dawn have to be informed in the conversation for it to actually be presented in the story arc? Why, if this was even slightly possible, didn't we have a moment, a scene or two, where Buffy and Giles discussed the possibility? Where Giles took Buffy aside and asked her if she'd considered the fact that the spell might have had something to do with Joyce's death? Buffy, as we've seen, could have easily shut him down and told him that he was to never mention it again, then gone home and consoled Dawn over the death of their mother. Dawn didn't need to be informed. Until, you know, it inevitably comes tumbling our years later, lol.

Or, hell, I'd even taken Glory, knowing what she knows of the monks and their magic, she could have easily, at the very least, planted the seed that Joyce's death wasn't natural at all which would lead to Buffy asking questions.

But I still don't buy it. Like someone else said, there was a huge deal made out of the fact that Joyce's death was completely natural, something that Buffy just COULD NOT fight, something she was completely powerless to stop. Finding out that Dawn's creation was actually to blame would take something huge and really, really important away from that.