The Hot Topic: Does Joss Care?

[thetopher]

I hadn't read anything since the first few issues of season 8 and hated it.. I read the last two issues when Spike and Buffy did the nasty and I thought 'this feels like Buffy' was it only season 8 that it was global?

Pretty much. By the last episode of Season 8 Buffy is in San Francisco living with Xander and Dawn and waitressing. By S9 Buffy's got her own place and stays in the city until a brief trip to the deeper well at the end of the season.

But in my opinion S9 is far worse than S8. S8 was crazy- no doubt, but it wasn't boring, badly written or unfunny. I can't remember smiling at one piece of dialogue in Buffy S9, and its in fact when a lot of people gave up on the comics all together.
A&F kinda makes up for it though.

 

[VisionBoy]

This was part of my issue with season 8, although that wasn't actually where I stopped reading. But the issue with season 8 for me, was that it was multiple bat shit crazy ideas, thrown all over the world, that mushed together and culminated in an overwhelmingly bat shit climax that felt more like 9 issues of information overload than anything to me. While the crazy was grounded in Sunnydale before, season 8 didn't have anything to reign it in and by the time I got to the end of issue 40, I felt less satisfied and more frazzled by the experience.

Now craziness is fine at certain times and yes BTVS and Ats had plenty of it, but there was so much of it in season 8, especially towards the end, that I couldn't get grounded enough to be emotionally involved. So when

Spoiler

Giles dies

, I was too distracted by all the craziness to really feel much of anything. Even the more chilled issue after, we were in another brand new setting, people were breaking up and moving in together, it was just all a bit too much to process IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I loved some parts of season 8 and I'm glad I gave it a shot, but I get why some people didn't stick with it. It think Mr. Pole is onto something with Sunnydale no longer containing the series.

As for crazy elements in general, I can deal with giant Dawn, massive Gods and all that. But when you insert it into an emotionally heavy story and turn it into something far lighter/jokier/wackier than it ought to be, then I have an issue. Hence why the pregnancy/robot mind swap story was where I gave in. I don't like being tricked into thinking our lead character is going through something major and life changing when in reality it's just wacky robot hi-jinks. To me, it felt like one step away from Buffy waking up and realizing that it was all a dream.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

From my perspective, Buffy = Joss and I'm not interested in any version of her story that he's not directing. Anything else is fanfic. Nothing wrong with fanfic, I've written plenty of it myself, but it's not canon. I want the real story.

I loved the first half of season 8, and thought things fell apart mostly in the second half with the Angel/Twilight reveal. I had no problem with the "batshit" ideas. I've always liked Buffy more as a fantasy/adventure than as a soap opera. Crazy stuff is fine, and there was plenty of it on the show as well. It's the love-life drama that tends to make me skim ahead.

Season 9 was kind of bland, though in contrast to season 8 I thought it was at its best toward the end. Andrew Chambliss never really had the "voice" of the Buffyverse right. I liked the Angel & Faith half of the story by Christos Gage better than the Buffy & Scoobies half.

Season 10 is fun so far, though at this point I wish there was less talk and more action.

 

[Silverspike]

" Crazy stuff is fine, and there was plenty of it on the show as well."

Oh christ not as ott as in the comics! I mean could you have seen a giant Dawn crashing around in season what ever? And the least said of Spikes' space ship the better.

"It's the love-life drama that tends to make me skim ahead."

Something that not only hooked me, but a lot of the female audience as well I suspect.

The action 'stuff' in the comics bores the crap outta me I'm afraid. And it's not because I'm not used to such things as I used to collect American comics years back. It's just doesn't work or hold my interest for some reason.

 

[thetopher]

See what I mean ^^ Logic fail. Puppet Angel? Great/genius. Giant Dawn? Crazy/stupid. 😵

Season 9 was kind of bland, though in contrast to season 8 I thought it was at its best toward the end. Andrew Chambliss never really had the "voice" of the Buffyverse right. I liked the Angel & Faith half of the story by Christos Gage better than the Buffy & Scoobies half.

This.
Most of the people I know who reads the comics stopped reading halfway through Buffy S9- boring is way worse than crazy any day of the week. 🙂

 

[VisionBoy]

I loved the first half of season 8, and thought things fell apart mostly in the second half with the Angel/Twilight reveal.

Yep, ditto. That's pretty much how I feel about season 8. Earlier on I think it had some really great moments and arcs (I'd put No Future For You in my top comics list), then towards the end I found it quite a chore to get through. I was reading it with a "well, I've gotten this far" state of mind, more than a real eagerness to see the climax.

 

[Silverspike]

"See what I mean ^^ Logic fail. Puppet Angel? Great/genius. Giant Dawn? Crazy/stupid"

If you genuinely think they were the same then there's simply no hope for you sunshine. 😀

 

[Taake]

See what I mean ^^ Logic fail. Puppet Angel? Great/genius. Giant Dawn? Crazy/stupid. 😵

To be fair - Puppet Angel was one episode. It was played for goofy laughs and it worked.
When I read season 8, Giant Dawn parts was just... a misery to get through. It seemed to me like she was a giant for a long time (it was a while since I read through that so I can't remember how many issues, sorry, but it did not feel like a one-off like the puppets) and she was - if possible - even more whiny and annoying then she had been on the show.

Meaning; while maybe it's not the idea of Giant Dawn that was terrible or crazy and stupid, the execution of it certainly was.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

To be fair - Puppet Angel was one episode. It was played for goofy laughs and it worked.

But it appeared to me that is what he meant.. both of the ideas (puppet angel and giant dawn) were based on preposterous concepts. Yet one came off as "genius" and the other "stupid".

 

[Taake]

But it appeared to me that is what he meant.. both of the ideas (puppet angel and giant dawn) were based on preposterous concepts. Yet one came off as "genius" and the other "stupid".

Because it's execution was "genius" (wary of using that word). It worked because it was short - like a fun little interlude.
The other idea might have been genius had it been acted upon in a fashion that would have done it service. Clearly it was not for many people.

 

[thetopher]

Meaning; while maybe it's not the idea of Giant Dawn that was terrible or crazy and stupid, the execution of it certainly was.

That's what I meant.
I know of at least one person who thinks the episode 'Smile Time' is hugely over-rated and makes zero sense. It just depends on what you like but really if your being honest it's simply down to personal taste- the tv shows could be dumb/fun as well.

Giant Dawn lasted quite a few issues as I remember- but really she was 'offscreen' for a lot of the time- she really only came to the fore during 'Wolves At The Gate', after that not so much.

Also it could be argued that Dawn's 'transformation' was at least part of a character arc for her, and functioned as a way for her to bond with Xander.
What purpose did the 'Puppet Angel' plot serve? Nothing really, except for the annoying Angel/Nina 'relationship'. (although I wouldn't trade Puppet Angel beating the crap out of Spike for anything)

 

[Taake]

That's what I meant.
I know of at least one person who thinks the episode 'Smile Time' is hugely over-rated and makes zero sense. It just depends on what you like but really if your being honest it's simply down to personal taste- the tv shows could be dumb/fun as well.

Giant Dawn lasted quite a few issues as I remember- but really she was 'offscreen' for a lot of the time- she really only came to the fore during 'Wolves At The Gate', after that not so much.

Also it could be argued that Dawn's 'transformation' was at least part of a character arc for her, and functioned as a way for her to bond with Xander.
What purpose did the 'Puppet Angel' plot serve? Nothing really, except for the annoying Angel/Nina 'relationship'. (although I wouldn't trade Puppet Angel beating the crap out of Spike for anything)

Well to me the point is that the Puppet story was so short that it didn't need to serve a purpose. It was a stand-alone between heavy stuff.
Giant Dawn, even behind the curtains, still dragged out (and never hit a funny-bone with me at least). Had she been a giant for one issue, it might have worked, but as a character arc it was poor and just came off as weird and crazy amidst everything else that was going on in that season. They didn't need more crazy. They could have used something to ground them in fact.

So that Giant Dawn is seen as awful and Puppet Angel funny is to me perfectly logical. Because Puppet Angel was used for laughs, Giant Dawn was used to make sense of why Dawn was still hanging around (and managed to point out that she was still quite useless as they had to turn her into a frigging giant)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

and managed to point out that she was still quite useless as they had to turn her into a frigging giant

I had no issue at all with her being a giant. I kinda accepted it. It's when she turned into a centaur and Xander rode off on her back that I threw my hands up in disgust.

 

[Taake]

I had no issue at all with her being a giant. I kinda accepted it. It's when she turned into a centaur and Xander rode off on her back that I threw my hands up in disgust.

Haha, yeah... at that point (at several points of that season actually) I threw up my hands and wondered what the heck Joss was thinking these days...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Giant Dawn/Centaur Dawn/Doll Dawn was meant to be a metaphor for how Dawn felt out of place and like an alien in the world, and Buffy was too busy to give her any support. I can see why it didn't work for some people. The only time I thought it got dumb was the Mecha-Dawn thing in Tokyo. Joss admitted later on that they got out of control with the whole "we can do anything because we don't need a huge budget" aspect of the comics.

But it was the Twangel stuff, especially the "Space Frak" where the season hit its low point. Then stuff just got random. I still have no idea why they brought back the Master, and then killed him off again almost immediately.

 

[Mr Trick]

That's what I meant.
I know of at least one person who thinks the episode 'Smile Time' is hugely over-rated and makes zero sense. It just depends on what you like but really if your being honest it's simply down to personal taste- the tv shows could be dumb/fun as well.

Giant Dawn lasted quite a few issues as I remember- but really she was 'offscreen' for a lot of the time- she really only came to the fore during 'Wolves At The Gate', after that not so much.

Also it could be argued that Dawn's 'transformation' was at least part of a character arc for her, and functioned as a way for her to bond with Xander.
What purpose did the 'Puppet Angel' plot serve? Nothing really, except for the annoying Angel/Nina 'relationship'. (although I wouldn't trade Puppet Angel beating the crap out of Spike for anything)

Of course it made no sense! It was about someone turning to a Puppet what do you expect? But it was funny because it went against the grain of Angel's image. It may not have worked as well with any other character.

Have to say this Giant Dawn stuff sounds terrible though.

 

[thetopher]

Well I love Smile Time, but my point is that you can't point to some transformation in the comics and say 'that's stupid and would never happen on the show' when we've had cazier things on the show. It's a weak argument because it makes no sense.

The things that bring down S8 for me were the exection of the Twilight plot arc and Spike's bug ship. But that was more a fundemental failure of characterisation/plot rather than 'this is too crazy for the Buffyverse'.

 

[Mr Trick]

Well I guess the thing is that normally within the logic of the shows they create some kind of explainable reason for what is happening, but you will get the odd idea where it is maybe more about just experimenting and having a bit of fun just because its a fun idea. In this case for noverity value there was more than enough to make the episode work as a one off.

 

[Silverspike]

Imo the writing in 8 made bugger all sense. I mean have you tried reading out loud the events of 8 and trying to connect it to previous seasons. It sticks out like a sore thumb to say nothing of sounding utterly insane.

Imo the whole thing reads like Whedons own crackfic. Christ I've read better fanfic then that rubbish.

 

[Taake]

Well I love Smile Time, but my point is that you can't point to some transformation in the comics and say 'that's stupid and would never happen on the show' when we've had cazier things on the show. It's a weak argument because it makes no sense.

The things that bring down S8 for me were the exection of the Twilight plot arc and Spike's bug ship. But that was more a fundemental failure of characterisation/plot rather than 'this is too crazy for the Buffyverse'.

Well for me it wasn't Dawn only that bothered me. She was just a part of the house of cards that was season 8, with these things you also mentioned, that for me as a fan (to tie it back to the topic) made me feel like Joss didn't care anymore. By this I mean that his invovlemnent (summits and whatever he attends) are his way of goofing off/blowing off steam, which to me is not the same as caring, it's playing,

Essentially, in the comics, I view his work as a kid playing with fire. Setting the house alight and watching it burn.

It makes me wonder - if this is Joss "caring" about the characters and their arcs then oh boy are we lucky there's a budget on tv, because if that's truly the case then it makes me feel like the greatness of the show is like 20% Joss and cronies, and 80% budget restraints.