The Hot Topic: Does Joss Care?

[Skanky Vamp]

if that's truly the case then it makes me feel like the greatness of the show is like 20% Joss and cronies, and 80% budget restraints.

I am going to catch alot of shit for this but thats what I think happened with Serenity. Once he had a big budget to play with he changed the entire tone of the show. The difference between Firefly and Serenity is noticeable. They dont have the same vibe to them. I think what you say is partially true.

 

[Mr Trick]

I am going to catch alot of shit for this but thats what I think happened with Serenity. Once he had a big budget to play with he changed the entire tone of the show. The difference between Firefly and Serenity is noticeable. They dont have the same vibe to them. I think what you say is partially true.

But wouldn't you expect a film to have a different tone to it than a television show? If it didn't then why not just leave it as a TV show?

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, film, television and comics are all entirely different mediums when it comes to telling a story.
I always seems odd to me when people directly compare the Buffy tv show and the comics and yet never do the same with say, the Marvel comics and movies- which are slowly merging their canons.

The Buffy comic should be compared in quality to other comics.

 

[EVIL UU]

Yeah, film, television and comics are all entirely different mediums when it comes to telling a story. I always seems odd to me when people directly compare the Buffy tv show and the comics and yet never do the same with say, the Marvel comics and movies- which are slowly merging their canons.

Well, thing is, the authors invite such comparisons - Buffy comics are a direct continuation of the show and even use a season format.

The Buffy comic should be compared in quality to other comics.

Yeah, it's just, which other comics? Buffy kinda does its own thing. Not quite a cape book, not quite young adult paranormal romance, not quite drama, not quite horror. It's not X-Men but it's not Rachel Rising either. I mean, yeah, there are better written comics and there are better drawn comics but those comics are not not trying to do what Buffy does - post-modern genre-bending meta-narrative madness with character arcs that run for seasons.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, thing is, the authors invite such comparisons - Buffy comics are a direct continuation of the show and even use a season format.


Yeah, it's just, which other comics? Buffy kinda does its own thing. Not quite a cape book, not quite young adult paranormal romance, not quite drama, not quite horror. It's not X-Men but it's not Rachel Rising either. I mean, yeah, there are better written comics and there are better drawn comics but those comics are not not trying to do what Buffy does - post-modern genre-bending meta-narrative madness with character arcs that run for seasons.

I think what I bolded is part of the problem. Stories and character arcs need endings to have any meaning, and we got that (for better or worse in some cases) in the show itself. There aren't really any new avenues to explore with these characters, or if there are, the writers aren't going there. Buffy has been sad and horny for close to a decade now. I think we owe Gellar way more credit for bringing this character to life than we thought. The mopey sad sack we have in the comics has none of the warmth she had in the show, even during some of her really grating periods.

Kind of like how I think Whedon owes a sizeable chunk of his success to his collaborators like Greenwalt and Minear. The high points of his work don't often come through just his own efforts. Removing the actors from the equation was the major kiss of death for me. Not having any input from Greenwalt Minear and other AtS writers for input on Angel and his cast was the other.

 

[thetopher]

Well, thing is, the authors invite such comparisons - Buffy comics are a direct continuation of the show and even use a season format.

That's a good point. Not to mention the constant focus on Buffy and Angel/Spike when it comes to 'relationships'. Joss had a golden opportunity in S8 to permentantly move on from this utterly played out plotline but then chose not to.
S8 takes a nose dive when these two are revealed.

Buffy has been sad and horny for close to a decade now. I think we owe Gellar way more credit for bringing this character to life than we thought.

Not just Sarah, some of the other characters have simply lost their appeal (what little they had) now that the actors are out of the equation. Maybe that's the lack of fresh plots/storytelling or whatnot.
I have noticed a marked improvement in Xander's character now that NB has been brought on board so maybe its just finding the correct writers to flesh the characters out.

 

[janas]

Maybe that's the lack of fresh plots/storytelling or whatnot.

...or maybe just they need to please some fans, and as we know, fanservice never producing good stories

 

[Silverspike]

They need a readership of course as they want to sell comics, but somehow after how season 8 played out with the Bangel 'epic' somehow I doubt it.

 

[thetopher]

The end of season 8 did it's best to make Buffy, Angel and Spike look idiotic, callous and shallow all in their own way- that's quite an acheviement for the writers who are trying to appeal to shippers.

Season 9 was even worse in the way that we had half a season of little but 'Spuffy will they/won't they'.
At least in the latest season it's at least going somewhere, even if that somewhere is a tad boring/predictable.

 

[janas]

They need a readership of course as they want to sell comics, but somehow after how season 8 played out with the Bangel 'epic' somehow I doubt it.

Exactly. Indeed when I said some fans I didn't mean Bangel. In season eight, Bangel is exactly opposite of fanservice.

 

[Silverspike]

Well season 8 had plenty of Bangel fanservice but just not going in the way fans imagined. 😀

 

[janas]

So it was not fanservice but fandisservice, see? we agree

 

[EVIL UU]

At least in the latest season it's at least going somewhere, even if that somewhere is a tad boring/predictable.

Buffy seems happy for once so I'm OK with this relationship but I don't know, I'm just not feeling it. Spike's too much like Angel and Riley now. I can't believe I'm saying this but compared to season 6? It's kinda lame. I mean, I know, Buffy's older now, Spike has a soul and whatnot so it all makes sense but damn, these two are not going to get drunk in a demon bar or f@#$ a house down again, are they? It's more geriatry and teen pop videos now. OK, I get that at this point vampire erotica is an overexploited husk but I don't know, it's like they're shooting cap guns when they used to drop nukes, you know what I mean? Can't top a rape attempt, I suppose.

They need a readership of course as they want to sell comics

Does the majority of audience truly care? What do you think? Sure, people have their preferences but is it really such a selling point? The shipping? Personally, I don't know, I think that most fans just want entertainment, good Buffy stories and whatnot.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy seems happy for once so I'm OK with this relationship but I don't know, I'm just not feeling it. Spike's too much like Angel and Riley now.

You're right. I mean, you know what the diehard fans are talking about regarding this issue? The dimensions of Spike's bedroom, the fact that he hasn't got that much furniture in it, and the fact that he's now back to using black nail polish again.
Dynamite stuff I'll think you'll agree. 😉

I mean there's been a little bit of 'he lied to Buffy!' but generally speaking everybody agrees that it was the right thing to do because that particular plot point (keeping the truth from a loved one until you know more about the situation) has been done in every fictional relationship EVER. It's hardly riveting stuff unless you're a shipper.

Screwing the house down? Painful to watch (in more ways than one) but also shocking, interesting stuff. I think all that is long past.
Which begs the question- if a relationship isn't interesting then why devote so much time to telling/showing it?
Hopefully it will go somewhere interesting within the next couple of issues.

Anyway, that's OT stuff. I'm reading the issue again tomorrow when I've got some free time and see if there's anything interesting there.

Does the most of the audience truly care?

Comic book readers want what they always want- interesting plot lines/ character stuff.
The shippers may post lots about their fan preferences but they are in the minority, always have been. 
Silverspike: "Dynamite stuff I'll think you'll agree." So you're ignoring the whole 'is Spike murdering people' part then.

I'm not but a lot of the Spuffy fans on the boards are- their filing that under simple 'plot stuff'.
Spike apparently murdering people is the overarching mysery but shippers seem much more concerneed about Spike lying to Buffy.

Shippers man, their priorities are all screwed up. 😀

 

[SiegePerilous02]

That's a good point. Not to mention the constant focus on Buffy and Angel/Spike when it comes to 'relationships'. Joss had a golden opportunity in S8 to permentantly move on from this utterly played out plotline but then chose not to.
S8 takes a nose dive when these two are revealed.

Despite my shipping preferences, I was enjoying season 8 at first precisely because there was no vampire romances involved. Just Buffy and her friends, old and new. It was awesome. When Joss mentioned early on that he was saving Angel and Spike for brief appearances down the line, I was hopeful we'd get a brief scene like in Chosen and then Angel would be sent on his way, preferably right into his own comic continuation of his series (stop ignoring the spin-off Whedon). Or doing something completely crazy and cutting the will they/won't they crap and actually getting them back together and writing an actual adult relationship. But what we got was...not either of those things. It was fan disservice to prove some kind of...point, I guess? And the shipping wars have consumed the series once again, in addition to making Angel toxic for no reason.

 

[Taake]

Despite my shipping preferences, I was enjoying season 8 at first precisely because there was no vampire romances involved. Just Buffy and her friends, old and new. It was awesome.

This.
This was exactly what I was looking for in the comics. No vampire romances, no re-hashing of all we'd already gone through.
That would have been nice. Cameos from the vampire gallery would have been just enough.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I find you saying you wanted

No vampire romances

coupled with your banner to be amusing.

I still question the while Twilight name. I still think it was all supposed to be a pisstake.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

I find you saying you wanted coupled with your banner to be amusing.

I still question the while Twilight name. I still think it was all supposed to be a pisstake.

I think Joss views the Buffy/Angel relationship as having unintentionally planted the seeds from which Bella/Edward and similar romances grew. Those stories just took the basic elements of Bangel while ignoring the themes, nuances, darker elements, subversions, etc. He may have thought using the same couple that "started it all" to deliver a scathing meta commentary against Bella/Edward was a good idea, but he put his themes ahead of who the characters were supposed to be.