The Hot Topic: The Summers Sisters

[Taake]

There's been some discussions about Dawn certainly - about her existence, about her whininess, about her role in season 8 and so forth... Now how about we discuss the Summers Sisters both.

1. Is it good for Dawn to be around Buffy? (that is after season 5 and the threat of Glory)
Would it have been better for Dawn to have gone to their father? For her own sake, not for the story's sake, that is. And even if she hadn't left then would it be better for her to leave Buffy's life at this point (the comics) in order to try and have a normal life. And if she did leave - could she have a normal life?

2. Is Dawn's presence (again after season 5) good or bad for Buffy? Would it have been easier for Buffy to get back on her feet if she hadn't had to be a parent? Would it benefit her now to be separated from Dawn?
(Since I don't read the comics myself I would love to hear some commentary on their relationship by now and what it is like)

So... what are your thoughts? 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Personally, I think that the best thing to have happened to Dawn after Season 5 would have been the same thing that happened to Connor at the end of Season 4, only she wouldn't have simply gone to new parents, she would have disappeared altogether. However, in answer to your questions...

1. Is it good for Dawn to be around Buffy? (that is after season 5 and the threat of Glory)

Not really. Season 6 Dawn would have been better off living with someone who she saw as more of an authority figure than she obviously did Buffy.

2. Is Dawn's presence (again after season 5) good or bad for Buffy?

Dawn's presence in Season 6 serves no other purpose than to be another burden to Buffy at a time when she is overloaded already. Buffy is not a parent, she couldn't, without the deus ex machina of Giles playing Daddy Bigbucks, support a family, even one only consisting of a single child. Alone, she could have probably gotten by on whatever money she made at the Doublemeat Palace, even if it had meant moving into less expensive living quarters. Buffy had enough worries with her near suicidal depression. She didn't need to be saddled with a teenaged girl and all the problems she presented.

 

[EVIL UU]

1. No, I think not. One, it's dangerous and two, Buffy's a pretty terrible parental figure. As to the comics - yeah, I think that she should leave, Xander should too. As long as Buffy ( or Willow, I guess ) is in possession of the Vampyr book she's a target for all sorts of demonic nasties. It's dangerous but Buffy can handle the danger because she's the slayer. Willow, Spike and Giles are just as capable. Dawn and Xander however are not, they have the experience and the abilities but at the end of the day that's not enough - you need raw power.

And if she did leave - could she have a normal life?

Dawn had a normal life in season 9 until consequences of Buffy's decisions pulled her back into the occult garbage bin.

2. I think that Buffy kinda answered that question in "Forever" - It would be okay if it was just me I had to worry about. But Dawn... Yeah. As to the now? Oh man, basically Dawn kinda seized to exist in season 9 but Willow managed to magic her back into existence and this is why Dawn is...you know what, it's not like I understand it, just read this:

Xander: You're saying...you've mentally gone back to high school?
Dawn: Not quite. It's hard to explain. I still remember everything since then, but it's like I never lived through the time when we were falling in love.

And this:

Dawn: I was created by magic. Instant body, a preset bunch of emotions. The body's okay, but it's like the motions are back to default settings.
Dawn: I remember everything that's happened. Being with Xander, falling in love with him. But I don't feel it. I have that stupid high school crush on him I had when I was fourteen. But what he feels for me me is so deep, so intense.
Buffy: And you can't handle it.
Dawn: No. I can't. Not on top off...everything else I'm catching up on...
Buffy: Everything...wait, are you saying it's like the past few years are coming back to you all at once, for the first time? Dawnie...even mom?
Dawn: It's like I just lost her. All over again.

As you can see Dawn is fourteen again but not quite ( ? ) so Buffy can be the emotionally supportive big sister she never was by the way!!! Well f#%* me sideways! Dawn had a life in season 9, the kind of life that made Buffy look like a whiny younger sister and she lost that life because of Buffy's decisions - space intercourse, destruction of the seed and whatnot. 'Cause Dawn just has to be the baby! I hate this storyline so much. Dawn has outgrown Buffy and has no reason to hang out with her anymore? Well, limit her presence then or outright kill her instead of pulling off this retrogressing nonsense. Anyway, I think that Dawn's presence is good for Buffy but it's not good for Dawn, like, fries fried in a used motor oil not good.

 

[Taake]

1. No, I think not. One, it's dangerous and two, Buffy's a pretty terrible parental figure. As to the comics - yeah, I think that she should leave, Xander should too. As long as Buffy ( or Willow, I guess ) is in possession of the Vampyr book she's a target for all sorts of demonic nasties. It's dangerous but Buffy can handle the danger because she's the slayer. Willow, Spike and Giles are just as capable. Dawn and Xander however are not, they have the experience and the abilities but at the end of the day that's not enough - you need raw power.



Dawn had a normal life in season 9 until consequences of Buffy's decisions pulled her back into the occult garbage bin.

2. I think that Buffy kinda answered that question in "Forever" - It would be okay if it was just me I had to worry about. But Dawn... Yeah. As to the now? Oh man, basically Dawn kinda seized to exist in season 9 but Willow managed to magic her back into existence and this is why Dawn is...you know what, it's not like I understand it, just read this:

Xander: You're saying...you've mentally gone back to high school?
Dawn: Not quite. It's hard to explain. I still remember everything since then, but it's like I never lived through the time when we were falling in love.

And this:

Dawn: I was created by magic. Instant body, a preset bunch of emotions. The body's okay, but it's like the motions are back to default settings.
Dawn: I remember everything that's happened. Being with Xander, falling in love with him. But I don't feel it. I have that stupid high school crush on him I had when I was fourteen. But what he feels for me me is so deep, so intense.
Buffy: And you can't handle it.
Dawn: No. I can't. Not on top off...everything else I'm catching up on...
Buffy: Everything...wait, are you saying it's like the past few years are coming back to you all at once, for the first time? Dawnie...even mom?
Dawn: It's like I just lost her. All over again.

As you can see Dawn is fourteen again but not quite ( ? ) so Buffy can be the emotionally supportive big sister she never was by the way!!! Well f#%* me sideways! Dawn had a life in season 9, the kind of life that made Buffy look like a whiny younger sister and she lost that life because of Buffy's decisions - space intercourse, destruction of the seed and whatnot. 'Cause Dawn just has to be the baby! I hate this storyline so much. Dawn has outgrown Buffy and has no reason to hang out with her anymore? Well, limit her presence then or outright kill her instead of pulling off this retrogressing nonsense. Anyway, I think that Dawn's presence is good for Buffy but it's not good for Dawn, like, fries fried in a used motor oil not good.

'I'm sorry but whaaaaaaaat.....😱
What the heck is going on in these comics? This just sounds crazy and needlessly convoluted.

That's a shame, really, if Dawn's character did have a normal life it seems dumb to have ruined that for this.

 

[thetopher]

1) In S6 not really, but then Tara and Willow were more parental than Buffy. But I think in S7 Dawn shows a lot of maturity and insight (apparently getting trained by Buffy over the summer turned her into this mature, adult-sounding person) and is actually pretty darn cool. So , S6 goes out the window in my opinion- it happened, they got throught it, S7 was better and Buffy was supportive big sister type for the first half.

After the tv show Dawn, more than anyone, has tried to get 'out of the life' of Buffy and go her own way. Between 7 and 8 she attended college, and only came back into Buffy's life because she was cursed 'three times' or something. Anyway, she was stuck in the castle and guess what? Regressed to being whiny and annoying around Buffy.
So she gets cured and then...goes her own way again. She's more adult than Buffy, has a normal boyfriend, does normal job-like things...and then she starts to fade out of existance because of the end of magic business- she's dying basically.
So the Scoobies re-boot the seed and Dawn is infantalised again- she's cursed.
Buffy is her curse as far as I can see and she needs to....move far, far away or something. But, maybe this is all a metaphor for 'you don't choose your family', it's a cross to bear or whatever- that's what Joss believes anyway.
So maybe Buffy is Dawn's curse, something she has to put up with because of blood/fate/whatever.

2) On the other hand (again s6 aside) I think Buffy likes having a familial connection around. Dawn is her sister and a lot of the time makes Buffy feel less lonely- Dawn's made out of her after all, that's pretty close.
Sure, sometimes Dawn gets in the way of her slayer job in S8 but at least Dawn was kinda useful back then, and in S10 Buffy seems glad to have Dawn around, even if her job is still incredibly dangerous.
Buffy likes having ties to the world, her friends, her sister, her lil' mentor Giles being back, her stalker, they all make her feel wanted and therefore less close to that slayer-deathwish thing.

So, Buffy likes/needs Dawn around but Dawn should probably go minimum safe distance- but family is family I guess. 

'I'm sorry but whaaaaaaaat.....😱
What the heck is going on in these comics? This just sounds crazy and needlessly convoluted.

It is really a needlessly convoluted way to break Dawn and Xander up is what it is. The Summer's sisters are cursed I tell ya.

 

[Blaze]

Omg the comics sound awful!! WTF is all I have to say, glad that I don't read them because it's kind of painful to hear about.

BUT, if I go solemnly by s6-7, I think Buffy and Dawn we're really important to each other. It's easy to say that Dawn would have been better off with another parental figure. Well guess what, it's also easy to say that I would have achieved greater goals in life if I was born in a rich family that could send me to a prestigious school. But let me tell you I'm dam glad that I was part of my own family, however unperfect it is. Would I be better off with two parents who aren't divorce, sure. Would a poor third world child be better off being born in a first world country, sure. There is ALWAYS going to be something that is better. Always something that makes your family less perfect than another family. But that shit doesn't matter because family is family, and each family can be perfect without being perfect. Buffy and Dawn we're in a less than perfect situation, but they made it work. I would never want to see them apart (at least not in s5-7, dunno about the pile of crap comic). Family is family. And I truly believe that in the case of Dawn and Buffy, that family made them stronger. They might have went through hell and back together, but I'm sure neither of them would change that. In the end they loved each other, and that's all that matters.

As you can tell, I am a family oriented person. I think both Buffy and Dawn were better off being in each other's life. That doesn't mean that at some point they shouldn't each build their own life. They aren't attached at the hip afterall. But I think both benefit from having the other in their life.

 

[Mr Trick]

I have no interest in reading the comics either. Was perfectly happy with how Buffy the TV show ended. Seven seasons is a good run, guess I might read the Angel ones if anything as that show was canned prematurly.

Back on topic. I think keeping Dawn near to her was the best way Buffy could protect her. Once demons in town or elsewhere became aware of Dawn as Buffy's sister what would stop them from targetting her to get to big sis? The father was not in the on the whole Slayer narrative, and even if he was he would not be ready to protect Dawn.

Dawn became crucial to Buffy's development on the show, and over time she grew into the role of unofficial parent for her.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

They aren't attached at the hip afterall.

That would be awesome. Conjoined twin slayers.

 

[Lyri]

I think that sending Dawn off to her father would have been a massive mistake. He doesn't care about his daughters, he's proven that over and over and over again. Sending Dawn to live with him wouldn't have changed that fact and I think it would have messed Dawn up even more to be sent to live with someone who has no interest in her.

Dawn in S6 was an attention seeker. She wanted the people around her to acknowledge her existence. It's why she started stealing, why she was so hostile with Buffy, why she snuck out on Halloween. She needed to prove to herself that she was still wanted, needed, after the whole Glory debacle. In the post S5 world - in-verse - Dawn literally serves no purpose. She was made for one specific reason and that reason doesn't exist anymore. She has no real place in the world, given that she was made and not born like the rest of the earth's population. She just felt lost and unwanted. It isn't until the end of S6 that she carves out her own path and finds her place in the world. I have no trouble believing that Dawn would have gone on to be a watcher, had the council still existed.

All that being said - Buffy might have done better without Dawn around.

I've never had depression, I have no idea what that's like, but I've seen a lot of things that suggest that responsibility is the best way to help someone get over their depression and I just think that that is a pile of shit. Some people just don't need that, they need to focus on getting well, and having a child to take care of and take their attention just doesn't mesh with that.

I don't want Dawn to just disappear into the ether. I think doing that invalidates everything that Buffy went through. The situation with Connor is entirely different and it works for Angel's character and where he was at that point in his life. It also works for Connor's character. But it doesn't work for Buffy's. I think it would have just caused Buffy even more harm and distress knowing that her sister just vanished after everything and she had to go on living her life as though Dawn never existed. And I don't thing the audience would have gone for it either.

No, I don't like what they've done to Dawn's character in the comics, but I would never say that it would be better if she wasn't around. Buffy needs a familial bond at this point in her life. I think she would be even more adrift if Dawn wasn't a part of her life. They might not interact on a daily bases, but I think knowing that she has that connection helps Buffy at least a little.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think that sending Dawn off to her father would have been a massive mistake. He doesn't care about his daughters, he's proven that over and over and over again. Sending Dawn to live with him wouldn't have changed that fact and I think it would have messed Dawn up even more to be sent to live with someone who has no interest in her.

Dawn in S6 was an attention seeker. She wanted the people around her to acknowledge her existence. It's why she started stealing, why she was so hostile with Buffy, why she snuck out on Halloween. She needed to prove to herself that she was still wanted, needed, after the whole Glory debacle. In the post S5 world - in-verse - Dawn literally serves no purpose. She was made for one specific reason and that reason doesn't exist anymore. She has no real place in the world, given that she was made and not born like the rest of the earth's population. She just felt lost and unwanted. It isn't until the end of S6 that she carves out her own path and finds her place in the world. I have no trouble believing that Dawn would have gone on to be a watcher, had the council still existed.

All that being said - Buffy might have done better without Dawn around.

I've never had depression, I have no idea what that's like, but I've seen a lot of things that suggest that responsibility is the best way to help someone get over their depression and I just think that that is a pile of shit. Some people just don't need that, they need to focus on getting well, and having a child to take care of and take their attention just doesn't mesh with that.

I don't want Dawn to just disappear into the ether. I think doing that invalidates everything that Buffy went through. The situation with Connor is entirely different and it works for Angel's character and where he was at that point in his life. It also works for Connor's character. But it doesn't work for Buffy's. I think it would have just caused Buffy even more harm and distress knowing that her sister just vanished after everything and she had to go on living her life as though Dawn never existed. And I don't thing the audience would have gone for it either.

No, I don't like what they've done to Dawn's character in the comics, but I would never say that it would be better if she wasn't around. Buffy needs a familial bond at this point in her life. I think she would be even more adrift if Dawn wasn't a part of her life. They might not interact on a daily bases, but I think knowing that she has that connection helps Buffy at least a little.

How has he shown that he doesn't care for his daughters? I take it you can't be talking about Nightmares because that clearly was not really. Besides that we have not seen him involved much in the show at all. Many parents get devorced doesn't mean that the one who chooses to live elswhere does not care.

 

[Lyri]

Besides that we have not seen him involved much in the show at all..

This is exactly my point. From what we know, Buffy saw her father three times since moving to Sunnydale - 'Nightmares', the summer between S1 and S2 and (if it was a different time and not the same time as between S1 and S2) the time Buffy and Dawn spent with their dad at the beach when Dawn collected seashells for Buffy's photo frame gift.

Three times in all those years? He cancels on her birthday, doesn't even call or send a gift for her eighteenth, doesn't attend her high school graduation, doesn't attend the funeral of her mother, doesn't call or wonder how she's surviving looking after her sister and attending college. Shouldn't he have AT LEAST stopped by to check on them or suggested that they come live with him? Hell, he probably has every legal right to just take Dawn, screw Buffy.

The fact that the social worker never even tried to contact him speaks volumes to me. She has access to Dawn's records, she knows that Hank is alive. If she was really that concerned about Dawn, her first call should have been to Hank, regardless of Buffy.

 

[Mr Trick]

This is exactly my point. From what we know, Buffy saw her father three times since moving to Sunnydale - 'Nightmares', the summer between S1 and S2 and (if it was a different time and not the same time as between S1 and S2) the time Buffy and Dawn spent with their dad at the beach when Dawn collected seashells for Buffy's photo frame gift.

Three times in all those years? He cancels on her birthday, doesn't even call or send a gift for her eighteenth, doesn't attend her high school graduation, doesn't attend the funeral of her mother, doesn't call or wonder how she's surviving looking after her sister and attending college. Shouldn't he have AT LEAST stopped by to check on them or suggested that they come live with him? Hell, he probably has every legal right to just take Dawn, screw Buffy.

The fact that the social worker never even tried to contact him speaks volumes to me. She has access to Dawn's records, she knows that Hank is alive. If she was really that concerned about Dawn, her first call should have been to Hank, regardless of Buffy.

All very true. I just didn't know if it was that he didn't take much of an interest or if we were meant to assume that he still saw Buffy and maybe even Dawn on the odd weekend, etc, but its just that the show didn't show us that. But yeah not showing up at the funeral is really off.

 

[The Bronze]

Let's not kid ourselves that Buffy is some kind of weight dragging Dawn down and stopping her from having this amazing life. Dawn wouldn't exist without Buffy and she wouldn't still be alive without Buffy repeatedly saving her. As we're shown in Season 8 Dawn is perfectly capable of finding her own problems miles away from Buffy and having to return to be looked after. So no I don't think Dawn would have been better off without Buffy up until this point in time. As for right now with her very complicated situation of being the same but completely different, I have no idea. My guess is it's still better for her to be around the people who care for her and that's Buffy.

It's a two part answer for Buffy perspective. Part one is that Buffy was fine before Dawn came along. She didn't need the Monks to over write her life and if Dawn had disappeared along with Buffy's memory of her existence then Buffy would have been fine, eventually. Having Dawn around during her depression wasn't helping her, it was just another reason for Buffy to get down on herself because she knew she couldn't fill the parental role at that time.

Part two though is that with everything staying the same after Season 5 then Buffy couldn't have coped with losing Dawn. She's part sister, part mother and if they were parted I think it would have really hurt Buffy.