The Human Soul and Altruism

[Kana]

Just dropping in again. I was thinking.

In terms of the Verse, the soul seems to give humans the warm fuzzies when they do something that is considered morally good and zaps them with the guilties when they do something that is considered immoral.

Now talking about how we judge soulless vampires, generally they get very little positive emotional reinforcement if they do something considered by humans as morally right and in turn get a lot of pleasure out of doing the 'wrong thing'.

Now if we go to ChippedSpike, at the very least he gets negative reinforcement for the actions, which humans genarally consider wrong, now is the soul merely a metaphysical extention of this?

As for the altruism mentioned above, it can be argued that the grandmother would feel something positive for that and that is her reward, although honestly whether it's considered real or not perhaps that is the closest we can get. Does it really become a question of semantics? Giving, sacrifice can we coin these as selfish or can we draw a line despite the actor at least gets the benefit of a positive feeling of helping another? If non human animal can altruistic (is it possible) if we destroy the dichotomy between ourselves and other animals, can humans not be deemed altruistic?

Going back to SoullessSpike, is there any kind of different between his acts of heroism and that of a soulled human or vampire?

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Kana,

I do not think there is a selfish act period- save sacrificing yourself for another, because any act will have consequences and results and there will always be blowback.

Actually, from what I learned in class, that isn't really selfless either.
The current theory right now is that we do these selfless acts to ensure that our genetics will be passed on. Fitting with this theory, this is why we're more likely to selflessly help family members. Apparently, in bees (where genetics are really similar from generation to generation), evolutionary, it pays of better for a bee to die saving a sister bee, because their heirs will still be 3/4 genetically the same as the bee. Well if I remember correctly, this is fom way back, my first course in university.
When we go with that framework, there really is no selflessness in any sacrifice. You could argue that even though we might not be related to the people we sacrifice ourselves for, we're still from the same species, so especially in times of crises it's still a genetic payback.

Other reasons named for why we help (well, that I remember, that is) were that it makes us feel better about ourselves, and that people we are helped are more likely to return the favor.

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I must say, I do like the Jewish model of selflessness though.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So are there any examples of totally selfless deeds within the Verse and how does the soul influence this and if it gives them the warm fuzzies isn't it really selfish?

It's interesting, because many fans think that Buffy's jumping in 'The Gift' was completely selfless - done to save her sister. I personally don't view her sacrifice as completely selfless. I think there was a part of her that wanted to die. Now, I'm not saying she killed herself consciously, but I do believe that part of her welcomed the end of it all, however you choose to interpret that.

Perhaps you're right and there is no such thing as a selfless act. If I could think of an act that seemed almost completely selfless, it would be maybe Angel's decision in IWRY or possibly Spike's decision to not tell Glory about Dawn being the Key. In terms of how the soul fits in -- in my first example, said vampire did have a soul, and in the second example said vampire didn't. So, yeah. Of course, what makes Spike different was his ability to be good without a soul.

I'll think about this some more and by back...

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

For Buffy, the closest this ever came into being was The Zeppo. Xander's reasons don't really fit the criteria though, per se. That the event passed into the ether with none the wiser is the hazy area.

Yeah, I initially thought of that, but one could argue he did that to save his own a*s, you know (to play Devil's Advocate).

He was just feeling really useless to the group since no one wanted him around. So if the bomb went off, no big loss to his world. I mean, he even got laid right beforehand.
He was ready to go as that was as good as it was going to get.

Yeah, but it's arguable how 'heroic' Xander's act was in that episode. Anyone would, in a similar situation, try to stop the person from bombing the building.

What was extraordinary was the fact that Xander never mentioned it to his friends afterward.

Even Angel, with his I Will Remember You episode was explicitly told not to divulge what had happened to anyone. What does he do? Spills the beans to Doyle looking for something in response almost immediately afterward.

Yeah, that's the thing. What he did he meant to be selfless, I think, but in the end, was it really? As you said, he did tell Doyle...seemingly just so he'd "know" he did it.

Going back to SoullessSpike, is there any kind of different between his acts of heroism and that of a soulled human or vampire?

I don't know - is there? I think there is because Spike defied what it meant to be a vampire in the verse's context - he continually exhibited humanity when he "couldn't" have.