The hypocrisy of the Bangel

[Wesley Pryce]

Hi, I've noticed on a lot of threads lately that there seems to be a sometimes "double standard" by Bangels when it comes to particular relationships. There is the obvious one i could point out,namely Spuffy,however i want to focus on another ship for now. Cangel it seems gets as much "Double standard" nonsense thrown at it as Spuffy does. Bangels seem to be okay with Buffy moving on from Angel,but they seemed far less willing to let Angel move on from Buffy and pursue another romantic relationship. There are a number of instances i could point out when it comes to this topic, from Kate Lockley to Nina. Still,the most prominent example would of course be Ms Cordy. The writers took their time building a friendship that gradually and quite slowly and believably developed into "romantic feelings" between Cordy and Angel throughout three seasons of the Angel series. It was done slowly and tastefully,and ultimately never really happened anyways,BUT still the bangel fans weren't satisfied. It wasn't enough that Angel and Cordy weren't going to be together,they couldn't even have "feelings" for each other(at least not feelings of a romantic nature.) The Bangels of that time and yet still today even acted as if this was an outright betrayal. But,when Buffy slept with Spike,when she told him she loved him, or even when she dated Riley it wasn't as big an issue. Sure,it was met with negativity by the Bangel shippers,but not anywhere the level of harsh negativity as the Cangel relationship was subjected to by the infuriated Bangel fans. It is often cited that one of the more significant reasons for the ratings drop of Angel season 4 is the lingering Cangel ship. Quite absurd,especially when considering they never even dated or even kissed(while not being under mystical influence) until season five of Angel("You're Welcome"). Angel is the lead of his own series and his own dear fans won't even allow him to have a romantic interest,how insane. So, i can already anticipate the level of vitriol this thread shall receive given the topic it addresses,so allow me to say I am neither Bangel nor Spuffy,and while i liked Briley I'm not huge on it or anything. I do in fact ship Cangel but that isn't the point of this thread really,I just find it quite unfair that a seeming "double standard" is placed on Angel, especially when Buffy has moved on from him several times over,yet Angel can't even move on at all.😡 To me it is quite an absurdity that i haven't heard, as of yet,a satisfactory answer to.

 

[EffyStonem]

I don't know what Bangels you've been interacting with but I know a lot of Bangels who are happy to ship Angel with others and actually loathe the Spuffy relationship. Darla seems to be the most popular choice for Angel after Buffy. A lot of people simply dislike the Cangel relationship because they either loved the friendship and didn't want to see it changed or they didn't like the writing of the relationship (which was completely messed up).

And lastly, I fail to see how shipping Buffy with other partners but not Angel with other partners is "hypocritical". Maybe some people simply don't like Angel's love interests or they didn't feel any of them were suited to Angel. Personally, I go the opposite way. I ship Angel pretty hardcore with Buffy and Darla but I don't ship Buffy with anyone but Angel because I'm not a fan of Riley and I hate the course of the Spuffy relationship.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. It isn't in any way fair and it's targeting an entire group of people, even if you didn't mean it that way.

Show me a recent thread on this site that backs up ANYTHING that you wrote. There has been a lot of very divisive stuff of late regarding Spike, but hardly anything I, as a daily member of the Boards, can think of to do with Angel and Cordy that has taken place in recent months here.

God, I don't even know where to start here. Making broad statements that apply to a large group of people rarely works, and it doesn't here. From what I've seen over the years, the relationship between Buffy and Spike is FAR more angering to Bangel fans than Angel and Cordy (not that that's right). Go and check out some of the old "Did Buffy love Spike" threads if you want proof of that, there are plenty of them. There are numerous "big issues" people manage to find. I rarely, if ever, see angry comments about Angel moving on from Buffy. Most fans of Buffy and Angel as a couple tend to believe that Buffy and Angel will always love each other. That doesn't mean that they don't have other relationships though, or that those other relationships are somehow not "real". Anyone who watched AtS can see plainly that Angel and Cordy were in love with one another. There are plenty of Bangels out there who quite like Angel and Cordy (I'm one of them), Buffy and Riley, Buffy and Spike (I like them to) and all the other relationships they embark on. Are there fans who dislike Cangel? Are there fans who hate it? Of course there are, just as there are fans who hate Spuffy, hate Bangel, hate Briley (and seriously? You're honestly telling me Briley doesn't get more hate than it deserves? Really?), hate Cangel and hate every other relationship on the show.

And people are entitled to their opinion. Fans of ships' always get fired up defending "their" ship'. There are plenty of Spuffys who detest Bangel, for no reason other than she isn't with Spike. Likewise, there are plenty of Bangel fans who unfairly lash out at Spuffy because she isn't with Angel. Hell, there are even the crazy ones (like me) who like Bangel, Spuffy and Cangel. On BB there's a wide range of opinions on ship' pairings. Just on here alone, [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] likes Bangel and Spuffy, [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] likes Bangel and Briley, I like Bangel, Spuffy and Cangel, and [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] hates em' all 🙂)). Where's the raging tide of angry Bangels you're ranting about?

Also, Kate Lockley isn't a love interest for Angel. Like, at all. She might have been, but the character was never really written that way. They have one episode where they hint at it, and then never return to it. Nina isn't overly popular not because of character flaws but because she was inserted into the storyline at an exceedingly inopportune time and she didn't mesh with anything at all on the show beyond Angel. VERY few fans blame the ratings tank in S4 on Cangel. They blame it, rightly, on the absurdly written Cordy/Jasmine/Skip crap that climaxed the year. Very few of the points in your rant are based on opinions, here at least, that are in any way overly prevalent. It just sounds like you're making things up to conform to what you want people to think. I can't speak for other sites, but here at least the level of...um..."hate" that you're talking about just doesn't seem to exist.

You haven't received a satisfactory answer because you haven't asked a satisfactory question. Calling a whole group of people absurd because of a thinly-supported perception is, well, absurd to me. It's also more than a bit contradictory. As I've said, there are ship' supporters of every pairing who dislike other couples. That isn't unique to Bangel as you seem to be implying.

Feel free to hit the disagree button now.

 

[The Bronze]

I've not seen an awful lot of Cangel hate around here but I think I can have a stab at answering the question anyway. Angel leaves Buffy at the end of Season 3 because he is not capable of giving her the relationship she deserves. The two main problems being that he is a vampire (so daytime activities are out) and that he is cursed, so must at all times be careful not to get too happy. So when he leaves it's on the understanding that Buffy should move on and try to find a more appropriate relationship. Doesn't seem fair to blame Buffy for trying to do that.

Whereas Angel solves precisely none of his issues that stop him having a relationship with a human. He's still a cursed vampire. There doesn't seem a lot of point investing in a new relationship that can only go the same way.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I didn't mean to cast aspersions at the "bangel" types,i truly didn't mean it that way. I just read some old threads in the Angel season 1,2,and 3 official episode discussion threads and i read a lot of Cangel disapproval. So,it just seemed like people were ok with Spuffy but not so ok with cangel. Im sorry for any offense i might have caused with my "grenade" title.

 

[Lyri]

It's the exact opposite - a lot of Bangel fans I know - including myself - are completely fine with the Cangel ship. It's Spuffy that they have a problem with, with valid reasons, and if you look, you'll see many, many, MANY threads proving that.

I don't think I've ever seen any sort of hypocrisy when it comes to Angel and Buffy's relationships after each other. The problems arise with the relationships themselves.

Like [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] says, the problems with Nina was timing. They thought that they were going to get another season out of Angel, where they could explore the relationship more. But they were cancelled, so they had to shoehorn it into the last few eps, which made the relationship look really shallow and trite, because it didn't have time to develop - it was just there.

Unlike Cangel, which was grown and nurtured and made a good relationship - until S4 when everything went to hell because of Joss' hissy fit over Charisma's pregnancy.

As for Briley, it's actually the Spuffy fans that I notice having the most 'issues' with this ship. Bangels seem to embrace it for what it is, and the only thing that bothers them is how boring they think Riley is.

As far as this site (the only fan forum I've ever really been a part of) I've never seen anything like the hate you seem to be insinuating against Cangel fans, and I've been here for the better part of 10 years.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Hate? I'm so sorry if it came off like that. I didn't mean to be hateful. I just was frustrated over some threads i had read bashing the Cangel ship. Obviously that was a minority opinion and i interpreted it wrong...sorry

---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------

This thread didn't come off like i wanted it to. It just seemed inconsistent of the Bangel shippers,but now i think i was absolutely wrong about that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I also completely disagree with the thread.

I love Angel and Cordy together, and I really like and wish we got more to see more of Nina also.

I hate when shipping is reduced to stereotypes. Yes I like Angel and Buffy together, yes I don't like Buffy and Spike together, but the reason I dont like Buffy and Spike together isn't becasue I like Angel and Buffy it's becasue Spike and Buffy is horrible, destructive and was often gross to watch.

In my experience this topic is the complete opposite, most die hard Bangel fans dont like Buffy moving on, but didn't mind Angel - which just shows that it isn't a double standard, people just maybe didn't like Spike.

There was always a lot of talk that Cangel was HATED, but I never see much of it online, no where near the degree that Spuffy is hated online.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

OK,i regret posting this,i was wrong,lets just move on now.

 

[Blaze]

OK,i regret posting this,i was wrong,lets just move on now.

As much as this might be a bit embarrassing and I understand how you want people to move on, this is actually a good topic that shines some light on how fan perceive different ship. What you see here isn't people attacking you, it's people defending their names and trying to show that them being a Bangel doesn't mean that you're closed to other ship options for Buffy or Angel. See personally, like already stated, I'm a fan of Spuffy and Bangel, and I also like Cangel. But you know what, I actually like both Spike and Angel better when they are on their own (a bit contradictory isn't it). I think people disagreeing with the topic is a good thing, it shows that sometimes our perceptions of people are wrong and we make pre-assumptions that shouldn't be made (me included, this isn't aimed at you, but at all of us).

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Well,i should have read over my thread before posting it. I never realized it sounded so nasty,i usually read over my thread before submitting it and this time i didn't and i wish i had. I completely see why people are mad with it,and i should've proceeded more wisely. So from now on I'll be sure to proofread my posts. *Does a memory spell to make everyone forget this thread* 😛

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------
[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] I like Angel on his own better too actually, even though it might not have come across that way lol. I was just a bit annoyed by a few threads from a while back and unfairly assumed most Bangels felt that way too. Anyway,i agree with your overall conclusion that its a healthy thing to discuss;the unhealthy parts were my title and the "tone" of the thread itself. Still,i hope this turns into a useful discussion even though i did a poor job with it. 🙂

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------
[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] I like Angel on his own better too actually, even though it might not have come across that way lol. I was just a bit annoyed by a few threads from a while back and unfairly assumed most Bangels felt that way too. Anyway,i agree with your overall conclusion that its a healthy thing to discuss;the unhealthy parts were my title and the "tone" of the thread itself. Still,i hope this turns into a useful discussion even though i did a poor job with it. 🙂

 

[brinkster130]

There is no denying that Cangel gets a lot of dislike, but I don't think it's from one certain group. Perhaps there was when the show was on air, but not now.

Personally, I think Spike and Riley get more hate for their relationship with Buffy than Cordy and Angel do.

As far as Cordy/Angel, they had one of the best friendships in the verse so seeing that change was hard; especially when the two never really took the plunge and became a couple. My guess is that more people think their romantic storyline was weak than the two of them being a horrible pair.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Not many of the shippers here hate other ships because the evident "soulmate" got cast aside. At one time, I lived in an apartment beside a woman whose first love had gone off to fight in WWI and died there (she was quite old at the time), so she never married because he was THE ONE. I don't think anyone really wants to see a favourite character pining away for the remainder of his or her life. Add to that the problems of the gypsy curse of true happiness and it looks like Angel is destined for less than optimal love affairs forever more. He doesn't turn into Angelus when he takes Darla to bed with him in Angel, so maybe a sex life without pure happiness is all that he can look forward to.

Cangel was badly written and developed and seemed to get sidetracked at every turn and there was always Cordelia's preference for the Groosalug to contend with. They could have done a much better job and that is what dragged Season 4 of Angel into the mire.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Ok,isn't it possible that they never intended for them to be together? But that the point was to create situations where two characters who love each other almost,but never quite get together.....in other words a "tragic romance". I mean I only say that because from what I've heard about what Joss originally intended to do in the fourth season with Evil Cordy and Angel killing her it would seem like a "natural" story arc to have them never quite get what they want. To never quite be together,yet be in love,and now she is possessed by something evil and Angel has to kill his love,seems like a Joss story. Maybe I'm just misreading it. 🙂

 

[Kean]

I've started this reply about four times and still I can't seem to find a satisfactory way of conveying my thoughts on this. Everything I type sounds like I am trying to defend or justify myself in some way and I refute that rhetoric completely. I am a Bangel who loathes Spuffy and dislikes Cangel and my feelings on each individual ship has nothing to do with either of the other two ships. The very first problem with this thread is assuming that Bangel fans dislike anything because they are Bangel fans. There have been five or six Bangel posters in this thread so far and each one of us ships B/A in different ways and for different reasons. There is no pack mentality going on. We don't hate X because we love Y.

Personally, I do dislike Cangel as a romantic relationship. I have several reasons for this: I think Angel and Cordelia's friendship is the best of the entire verse and I missed it when they tried to take them in a romantic direction - I still miss their friendship. I think they have as much sexual chemistry as a wet towel. It feels contrived, especially with Lorne and Fred telling Angel and Cordy they were in love rather than the story showing us they were. I have serious doubts if any of it was ever real or merely part of Jasmine's master plan. From what we did see it didn't look like Cordelia surpassed Buffy in terms of her place in Angel's heart and quite frankly, I will not stand for Cordelia Chase being second best to anyone. I'd rather her be Angel's best friend than his second best love. Not to forget, she slept with his son and it is all so deeply, deeply creepy.

So, there's five perfectly valid reasons I didn't like Cangel, and none of those reasons are because I don't want Angel to be happy with anyone but Buffy. And none of those reasons find their foundation in hate.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I will need to post a million good threads in order to ever fully redeem myself of this one, huh lol 😱

 

[janas]

Okay, for this time I forgive you, but just this once 😀 and only because I know you love Angel 😛
You're pardoned, absolved, shoo! (you can hear Cordelia's voice here?)

 

[VisionGirl]

As far as Cordy/Angel, they had one of the best friendships in the verse so seeing that change was hard; especially when the two never really took the plunge and became a couple. My guess is that more people think their romantic storyline was weak than the two of them being a horrible pair.

Personally, I do dislike Cangel as a romantic relationship. I have several reasons for this: I think Angel and Cordelia's friendship is the best of the entire verse and I missed it when they tried to take them in a romantic direction - I still miss their friendship. I think they have as much sexual chemistry as a wet towel. It feels contrived, especially with Lorne and Fred telling Angel and Cordy they were in love rather than the story showing us they were. I have serious doubts if any of it was ever real or merely part of Jasmine's master plan. From what we did see it didn't look like Cordelia surpassed Buffy in terms of her place in Angel's heart and quite frankly, I will not stand for Cordelia Chase being second best to anyone. I'd rather her be Angel's best friend than his second best love. Not to forget, she slept with his son and it is all so deeply, deeply creepy.

So, there's five perfectly valid reasons I didn't like Cangel, and none of those reasons are because I don't want Angel to be happy with anyone but Buffy. And none of those reasons find their foundation in hate.

Let me just qualify: I am an unabashed Bangel, but I do appreciate most of the relationships in the Buffyverse. There are some that I like more than others, but I can't say that I "hate" any (some of you know that I dislike that word, especially when I'm using it in reference to a television show LOL!). Well, maybe Willow & Kennedy, or Cordelia and Connor.

Anyway, Cordy is one of my favorite characters (thus my username). Like others have said, I adore the Cordy & Angel friendship. I actually do not mind the romance, I just wish they would have gone at it a bit differently. I really dislike that Lorne and Fred had to "tell" them that they were in love. It felt a bit manufactured. They could have made that evolution much, much more organic...and romantic! But they were pushed into it and then it never materialized and then Cordy/Charisma was treated like crap, and then she was in a frickin' coma!!

I will need to post a million good threads in order to ever fully redeem myself of this one, huh lol 😱

You're forgive, my son. 😉 It actually is an interesting topic.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This probably should have gone in Battleship.

Bangels seem to be okay with Buffy moving on from Angel, but they seemed far less willing to let Angel move on from Buffy and pursue another romantic relationship.

While, I think this is an interesting topic, I don't know if I believe this 'double standard' is true. And if it is, it's not just the Bangels who are guilty of it.

I know many Spuffies who dislike the idea of Buffy with anyone other than Spike (me being one) and the same goes for Spike. There is no 'double standard' there.

Now, I'm not a Bangel (far from it) but from what I've seen, it goes largely both ways; they don't like seeing either, Angel or Buffy, with someone else because - as all shippers do - they believe they should be together. Why settle for less?

Some fans (Bangels or not) don't like Angel with Cordelia because they thought it was forced and unnatural, meaning that they were better/more believable as friends. i don;t think it has anything to do with a double standard.

Personally, I agree with you that Cangel was a natural progression from friendship to love - but that's just my personal opinion.