The Importance of Admirable Males Characters in "Feminist" tv Shows

[caritas08]

I was having a conversation the other day with someone about how crucial it is to have admirable male characters on "feminist" tv shows.

Joss has always gotten credit for being a "feminist" writer and having strong female characters, but part of the reason I admire these female characters is that they only allow decent men in their social circles.

Too many "feminist" shows (I'm looking at you Sex and the City)are completely ruined for me because the men are such jerks that I lose all respect for the female characters who put up with them.

This is a huge problem with Gilmore Girls as well. I can't find a single likable male character and it makes me lose respect for the girls. This is the chief reason I normally don't enjoy chick flicks and romantic comedies.

On the flip side, I also hate movies where the female is weak or is strong but in the background the whole time. This seems to plague many action movies.

What are your thoughts?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think that in the shows like Sex and the City, they try too much to show the power of the women, so they make guys jerks. I think they have this image in their mind, if they make a complete assholes out of all male characters, female characters will look better.

Big part of why I hate Twilight is the Bella character. There you have pretty well rounded romantic story, that teenage girls always fall for, and there's nothing bad in that. But Bella, her only purpose in life is to be with Edward. And if she can't be with him, she's willing to die. What she wants, what she dreams about, what are her purposes and plans? They all include him.. No, sorry, that would be fine.. they're all about him. I'm glad I grew up with Buffy, who is such strong female character, who is surrounded, like you said, with decent men. I'm glad I didn't grow up with some character who's only purpose in life is to be with a man, or who's only purpose in life is to hate them.

 

[Abby27]

Agreed. I think people get afraid of throwing around the "F" word because feminism seems to be linked with women dominating men, when really it is just the call for women being equal as men socially, politically, and economically. "Feminist" who just think all men are pigs, sex-crazed animals are not helping the situation and are guilty of being just as sexist as they men they blame in the first place. Men can be feminist just as much as women can, and I think shows like Sex and the City (usually) and Twilight really counter the message of equality.

[MENTION=9532]PrincessBuffy16[/MENTION] I totally agree about Twilight! That is the biggest flaw I have with the show. It's telling young girls, "If you fall head over heels in love, then you should just have everything you do and plan focus on him and only him." It's a horrible message of dependence to young girls who will have their identity root from another person.

 

[prophecygrrl]

This is a huge problem with Gilmore Girls as well. I can't find a single likable male character and it makes me lose respect for the girls. This is the chief reason I normally don't enjoy chick flicks and romantic comedies.

Aw, you didn't like Luke? It's been a few years since I've watched Gilmore Girls so maybe I need to re-watch, but I remember that he was a good guy and I liked him a lot. 😛

Joss has always gotten credit for being a "feminist" writer and having strong female characters, but part of the reason I admire these female characters is that they only allow decent men in their social circles.

Personally, when I watch women-driven TV shows, I'm not really concerned with representation of men. Women in television and film are so rarely represented as complete human beings in the first place that to me, a negative representation of a man does not carry nearly the same weight as a negative representation of a woman. For example, when you look at gender representation in real life, the vast majority of media and culture we create is still overseen, produced, and distributed by men and male-dominated culture. A few male characters being jerks doesn't really contribute or take away from the power that men as a gender have, IRL and in most of film/television. It's not the same story for women though. :/

Have you ever seen Veronica Mars? It's a really good show and I think you might enjoy it. It's quite feminist (if you're interested in that), it has a really great female lead, and a lot of the men on the show are really well-written and decent.

 

[KellGreen]

I don't really know what I consider myself: whether a feminist or humanist.

I'm all for equality; I don't like shows that continually degrade men and show them as idiots. There's at least one generation of males who have lost their literary skills (or were never given/encouraged) which is ridiculous. Yes, "girl power" is great, but i don't like how it beyond that to "boys are stupid." The idea of feminism initially was to bring women's rights, freedom and oppurtinities up to the same level that men had. It was to bring women up, not men down. On tv i like to see equality, which is why even though Angel is far from my favorite character, i do really like Bones: They have different strengths, but they are equals to me. Although, i must say, when i was 4, my absolute (like obsessively) favorite show was Mary Tyler Moore, so... After that, i really like the duo shows...Hunter, L&O SVU, L&O CI, X files, etc, and ensembles like Friends, ER and HIMYM.

 

[Icarium]

Joss has always gotten credit for being a "feminist" writer and having strong female characters, but part of the reason I admire these female characters is that they only allow decent men in their social circles.

How exactly does this apply to Buffy "I miss my attempted rapist" Summers? Feminist writer, my ass. Whedon became just as likely as any (other) hack to write men as useless (or scum in more extreme cases) in order to make the female characters look better in comparison. And isn't it nice that he made Warren and Caleb over the top misogynists just to drive the point home in case somebody somehow managed to miss the incredibly unsubtle girl power messages of S6 and especially S7. He used to present such messages much better back when the characters, male or female, used their brains to save people, rather than relying on superpowers and the idiocy of the bad guys only. Making Xander, Giles and whoever the misogynistic bad guy happened to be at the moment, pathetic losers didn't really make Willow and Buffy any less pathetic themselves, if you ask me. It's just a very clumsy writing crutch.

Aw, you didn't like Luke? It's been a few years since I've watched Gilmore Girls so maybe I need to re-watch, but I remember that he was a good guy and I liked him a lot.

Yes, and he is a huge fan favourite to boot. He was very obviously not intended to be hated and to make the Gilmores look good in comparison. Whether this worked for the individual viewer is a matter of taste.

 

[zobothehobo]

Personally, I don't like to call myself a "feminist" because of the crazy things I've seen these people say. I've read stuff that calls Taylor Swift fans (like me) "the devil" because we support her and her "traditional gender roles" (which quite frankly is ridiculous. She's a strong independent woman who made one HELL of a career for HERSELF and she's only 21 years old. I mean come on). But I do very strongly believe in gender equality.

What this means is I want my PEOPLE to be good. I want to like the women AND the men on a show. Just like I want to like the women AND the men in my real life.

 

[peaches71]

I'm constantly identifying similarities between the men on Buffy and the men in my life! Giles has, on numerous occasions reminded me of my dad, as well as my uncle. Things that Xander or Spike say remind me of things my husband says. Oz reminds me of a male acquaintance at work...I could go on! The beauty of this wonderfully crafted feminist show is the abundance of strong, brave, and complex men! They are real men, hence all the real life comparisons!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Personally, I don't like to call myself a "feminist" because of the crazy things I've seen these people say. I've read stuff that calls Taylor Swift fans (like me) "the devil" because we support her and her "traditional gender roles" (which quite frankly is ridiculous. She's a strong independent woman who made one HELL of a career for HERSELF and she's only 21 years old. I mean come on). But I do very strongly believe in gender equality.

What this means is I want my PEOPLE to be good. I want to like the women AND the men on a show. Just like I want to like the women AND the men in my real life.

People are crazy. I was called a mentally retarded person, imbecile etc. for liking Britney Spears. I never understood why people have the need to judge others taste in music, movies or whatever.

 

[zobothehobo]

People are crazy. I was called a mentally retarded person, imbecile etc. for liking Britney Spears. I never understood why people have the need to judge others taste in music, movies or whatever.

Well these people are the same people who protested the art museum in New York because of the paintings of naked women. There is nothing that is perfect. You can find fault in everything, and if you're looking for one type of problem (ESPECIALLY one like this one), chances are you can find it even if it's not really there.

It irritates me when people judge me for my taste in music, but what irritates me more is people who spout off about something they don't know anything about... and are negative ALL the time.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Well these people are the same people who protested the art museum in New York because of the paintings of naked women. There is nothing that is perfect. You can find fault in everything, and if you're looking for one type of problem (ESPECIALLY one like this one), chances are you can find it even if it's not really there.

It irritates me when people judge me for my taste in music, but what irritates me more is people who spout off about something they don't know anything about... and are negative ALL the time.

There was actually a protest because of the painting of the naked women? I thought people are accustomed to it. When I was in Dali's museum in Spain, there was a picture of the man with a mustache, and in front of the picture there was a telescope, and when you look at the picture with it, you see a naked women from behind.

People are probably terrified of the unknown. Of different. Of things they don't understand. I don't think our civilization will ever be able to pass those problems.

 

[zobothehobo]

There was actually a protest because of the painting of the naked women? I thought people are accustomed to it. When I was in Dali's museum in Spain, there was a picture of the man with a mustache, and in front of the picture there was a telescope, and when you look at the picture with it, you see a naked women from behind.

People are probably terrified of the unknown. Of different. Of things they don't understand. I don't think our civilization will ever be able to pass those problems.

The protest was because "it's degrading to have paintings of naked women be celebrated." Such bullcrap if you ask me. It's degrading to have porn celebrated... but art? Ridiculous.

 

[Buffanator]

Part of the reason I loved "Buffy" is because she was strong in so many ways - not just her physical supernatural strength to fight evil beings. She was stronger than she realized when Joyce died & she had to take care of Dawn. She was stronger than she realized ("good smarts") when her physical powers were diminished & she had to fight a vampire by using her mind on her 18th b'day. And she was stronger than she realized when she came back home at the beginning of Season 3.

The men of BtVS show general flaws, NOT "jerk males" IMPO. Giles, who didn't stand up to the Council and administered the drugs that made Buffy weak on her 18th b'day. Oz cheating on Willow. Angel being an ass to Riley ("I don't like him") ...Spike's back'n forth "I love her/I want to kill her" attitude. Riley being pissy because Buffy didn't act like she needed him during her mother's illness. Giles betraying Buffy by stalling her while Wood tried to kill Spike. None of the male characters were really "jerks"- but they all definitely showed "jerk" moments. Then again, so did the female characters. It's just a natural human phenom.

Oh, & I liked Luke on Gilmore Girls. 😉

 

[caritas08]

Aw, you didn't like Luke? It's been a few years since I've watched Gilmore Girls so maybe I need to re-watch, but I remember that he was a good guy and I liked him a lot. 😛



Personally, when I watch women-driven TV shows, I'm not really concerned with representation of men. Women in television and film are so rarely represented as complete human beings in the first place that to me, a negative representation of a man does not carry nearly the same weight as a negative representation of a woman.

True but that negative representation of men can reflect poorly on the "positive" representation of the female character if that's what she surrounds herself with. Your friends and the people you associate with say a lot about you and women who date and hang out with these guys make me lose my respect for the women even if the women themselves are nice.

As far as Luke I know I'm alone but I wouldn't want to be around someone who got angry that quickly and that strongly over little things. Plus he's grumpy all the time. I would never want to date a guy like Luke.

How exactly does this apply to Buffy "I miss my attempted rapist" Summers? Feminist writer, my ass. Whedon became just as likely as any (other) hack to write men as useless (or scum in more extreme cases) in order to make the female characters look better in comparison. And isn't it nice that he made Warren and Caleb over the top misogynists just to drive the point home in case somebody somehow managed to miss the incredibly unsubtle girl power messages of S6 and especially S7. He used to present such messages much better back when the characters, male or female, used their brains to save people, rather than relying on superpowers and the idiocy of the bad guys only. Making Xander, Giles and whoever the misogynistic bad guy happened to be at the moment, pathetic losers didn't really make Willow and Buffy any less pathetic themselves, if you ask me. It's just a very clumsy writing crutch.

I agree that Joss is far from perfect. But if you honestly believe that the majority of men on Buffy are represented so poorly why do you watch the show? I know there are some bad guys on Buffy but I think there are far more admirable ones. (Giles, Xander, Oz, Angel with a soul, Spike with a soul, Riley, Wood and that's not even counting the admirable male characters on his other series) In my original post I said women who let these types of men in their social circles. Buffy didn't let Warren, Caleb or demon Spike after the AR scene back in her social circle.

 

[prophecygrrl]

True but that negative representation of men can reflect poorly on the "positive" representation of the female character if that's what she surrounds herself with. Your friends and the people you associate with say a lot about you and women who date and hang out with these guys make me lose my respect for the women even if the women themselves are nice.

Oh, I see what you're saying now. I never really thought of it that way...I'll have to think about that a bit more. 🙂