The Inititiative: Pretty Sadistic.

[itsxpaperdoll]

Watching season 4, there's one thing about the initiative that really bothers me: Why do they keep portraying them as Good Guys? (Apart from the fact that they create monsters, of course) I mean, why does no one say anything about the fact that they let vampires and demons starve to death (because they can't hurt living creatures)? Buffy just kills them, which isn't that bad since they were dead aready, but vampires and demons with a chip in their head just die slowly and painfully, I can imagine. Sure, vampires can go to the butchers to buy blood, if they have any money. But what about demons? And they keep them in cages, use them like lab rats, poison them, torture them and if they don't eat/drink what they give them they allow them to starve to death. That's not very nice, right? Why don't they just kill them? It's just sadistic. If they were animals, animal rights movement would have already shut the whole thing down.
It's not really their fault, right, so why is treating them like shit a good thing?

 

[Blondie Bear]

It's not. That was part of the point. They don't portray them as good guys for more than an episode or two. After that, we know they're up to no good. Riley's the only one who has complete faith in their good-guy-ness.

 

[T.I.P]

We cant really be feeling sorry for vampires and demons at all. But i still think the Initiative was quite sadistic. The soldiers took pleasure in the fact they were capturing or killing things. If Oz hadnt turned back at the right moment, Riley would have killed him, thats what the Initiatives all about.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

. If Oz hadnt turned back at the right moment, Riley would have killed him, thats what the Initiatives all about.

What a silly thing to say.
Thats what Buffy is all about. IF Buffy had to, she would. Angel too - in fact he did.

Now on the fact they treat them as 'Lab Rats' well I don't see it as sadistic.

Vampires, as far as we know, don't die from not eating - remember Angel in the end of season 3 beginning of season 4.

It is the Government using the Demons for a multitude of things.
All we saw was them putting a chip in the Vamps head to stop it from biting (WHICH only serves to make Spike a permanent member of the show, otherwise I don't see any reason to so this) and them creating Adam.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were doing tests for medicines as well.

Do I agree with 'Animal testing' not really against it to be fair, so I don't view this as anything different.
OK, the beings are sentient BUT they will also rip out your throat and eat you - so not really feeling bad for them.

 

[T.I.P]

What a silly thing to say.
Thats what Buffy is all about. IF Buffy had to, she would. Angel too - in fact he did..

How extremely silly of me. I didnt say Buffy and Angel wernt about that. Riley didnt need to kill him then and there anyway, he was in a cage. He just wanted to take his anger out and kill something.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

How extremely silly of me. I didnt say Buffy and Angel wernt about that. Riley didnt need to kill him then and there anyway, he was in a cage. He just wanted to take his anger out and kill something.

And - the thing was a Demon THAT he believed had killed one of his men.
How many times has Buffy been called on taking her anger out on something.

This is what they do, its no big deal AND if it was just a run of the mill demon the world wouldn't be a worse place with it gone.

Riley was a catch em, tag em, kill em soldier.
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littlewilly agrees: Yeah, and Riley soon realized what kind of person the Initiative had made him.

His reaction to Oz has nothing to do with the Initiative, his reaction is very human.

He wants to take revenge, put down the creature that killed his team member, probably his friend AND this being is not human.

The Initiative is questionable for what it does, fair enough, BUT it didn't create Adam to do the things it did.

As for its attempted killing of Buffy, that was Maggie Walsh.

There is no sadism in what they are doing, no deriving of any pleasure.

I have absolutely no issue with the Initiative.

 

[hazzard]

i do have issues with the initiative, but i thought it was a great way for btvs to show the clash of science and the supernatural. the issues deriving from the initiative throughout season 4 and some of 5 just proved to me that btvs really is about showing the gray areas--that nothing is black and white and the world is confusing. riley was the ultimate example of that in season 4 as his whole world fell apart. the initiative was the government attempting to stick its head in the realm of the supernatural, and i think the lesson learned is that it couldn't do it and shouldn't ever try.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I dont see how the Initiative could be called sadistic. They were not causing pain, per se, nor were they doing it for the sole purpose of enjoyment. The Initiative were the good guys.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I agree about the whole lab rat thing. I was a little disturbed when I saw that they were keeping them in cages. I understand that the Initiative was originally supposed to be good, but I never liked nor trusted them. I wasn't shocked when I found out Dr. Walsh was pulling a Frankenstein.

 

[fly on the wall]

...who cares if demons are in cages?
I mean, had they not been, they would have ripped the heads off of every Initiative member. And anyone else they came across.
I don't like the Initiative at all, but I wouldn't call them sadists.

 

[BuffyElevated]

...who cares if demons are in cages?
I mean, had they not been, they would have ripped the heads off of every Initiative member. And anyone else they came across.
I don't like the Initiative at all, but I wouldn't call them sadists.

Right, but why put them in cages? I understand they were trying to study them to see if they could be tamed or shaped into soldiers, but why keep them in cages when clearly their experiments weren't working?

Just my opinion.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Right, but why put them in cages? I understand they were trying to study them to see if they could be tamed or shaped into soldiers, but why keep them in cages when clearly their experiments weren't working?

Just my opinion.

What the hell?

Keep them in cages because that a) allows the scientists the knowledge of where they are b) stops them from attacking and killing the scientists.

How can you say the experiments clearly weren't working?

Spikes experiment seemed to work AND we don't have enough data to make such sweeping statements. Like what they were doing, how long they had been trying it, if they had any success so far.

Sweeping statements based on no fact from the show don't progress discussion.

 

[fly on the wall]

Right, but why put them in cages? I understand they were trying to study them to see if they could be tamed or shaped into soldiers, but why keep them in cages when clearly their experiments weren't working?

Just my opinion.

So they should have....let the demons roam freely around the Initiative while they suggested pills, etc, that they take? I don't understand your point.

Spike's chip seemed to work pretty well. And even if the experiments weren't working, that's what experiments are. Experimental.

 

[hannahfngrl26]

Personally I hated the initiative. I hated them like I hate Dawn 🙂 Seriously, I like the whole covert ops thing and the fact that they knew what demons were and all that jazz but the story line was so lame I could not help but hate them. I hated Maggie Walsh just like I hate Riley. I did like Forest and Graham though. Forest for being funny sometimes and Graham for being the guy that gave Riley a hard time. I HATED ADAM. I realize I am spewing forth a lot of hate but I simply cannot help myself. They were that terrible!!!

 

[T.I.P]

Graham gave Riley a hard time????? Graham said about two words the entire series, he was even more cardboard that Riley.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I think if Graham had been a bigger character, he would have kicked butt. He was a bit taciturn, maybe, but I think if he'd had more to work with, he wouldn't have been cardboard by any stretch.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Graham was the eye-candy for the ladies without that needless talking that Riley did.

Riley should have been but he made the massive mistake of thinking that pretty people can have an opinion.

 

[fly on the wall]

Don't get me wrong, I hate the Initiative. And Forest? Oh my Jesus, I hate him. He was Riley's Xander-about-Angel as soon as Buffy was brought up, totally irrational about everything to do with her. Oh yes, I'm *sure* the Slayer broke into the Initiative to stake Maggie Walsh and free some demon that's dissecting kids. Right.

 

[itsxpaperdoll]

This is just parltly related to the topic but I must say I quite liked Adam. But, like everything Initiative related, not like a villain. It actually had a Terminator-like cuteness (Hasta la vista, baby). I think that is actually my main problem with the Initiative. I mean, I am eternally grateful for them making Spike a regular, but everythin they did was so not thought about (and I'm not just talking about the torturing vampires, but also the cardbord charachters and so on) that they were just silly. And that's a shame I think, cos it could have been so interesting.

And, btw @ BotD, I totally agree about that I don't really oppose the testing (also on animals) but its just, most demons and vampires are slightly more evolved than your random lab rat, so I think it would be more fair to dose them with some drug, do their research and kill them, than to let them suffer in cages.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

And, btw @ BotD, I totally agree about that I don't really oppose the testing (also on animals) but its just, most demons and vampires are slightly more evolved than your random lab rat, so I think it would be more fair to dose them with some drug, do their research and kill them, than to let them suffer in cages.

BUT we're not coming it from your rationale, we're coming at it from a Government that views these as little more than evil creatures and want to utilise their abilities.