The Library in "The Wish"

They really don't say if Willow was the one who caught him or not. I would have liked to see how that came about. Who took Angel down. I really don't think Willow (at that time - Season 3) would be powerful enough to capture him. She didn't have much in the way of magical abilities at that time and wasn't a strong human to begin with.
 
J
Jacklyn
Good point-it could have been any of the vamps that got him...or the Master himself!
This is so like the most interesting thread I have came across on the board today, so many theories!!!
 
My theory would have been that either Lukas or The Master brought Angel down. If we go with the theory that Willow went off with that vamp in the first episode because Buffy wasn't there to stop her, that was more than likely when she got turned. Meaning she would have been dead during the Harvest. And at a guess, I would say that Willow turned Xander into a vamp after she rose from the dead. So that only leaves Lukas or The Master......

.....Or, I just thought.....it could have even been Darla!!
 
That is interesting...Darla would most likely still be alive (well undead) because Buffy was the one who killed her (first). And Luke was very strong, I don't know who could have taken him out since the slayer wasn't around. Most likely not Giles, Oz and the other whitehats.

Willow wouldn't have gone off with the guy if Buffy didn't tell her the "seize the day" most likely. Willow was probably turned during the Harvest or sometime soon after.
 
Cordy_Chase said:
That is interesting...Darla would most likely still be alive (well undead) because Buffy was the one who killed her (first). And Luke was very strong, I don't know who could have taken him out since the slayer wasn't around. Most likely not Giles, Oz and the other whitehats.

Willow wouldn't have gone off with the guy if Buffy didn't tell her the "seize the day" most likely. Willow was probably turned during the Harvest or sometime soon after.
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Interesting thread Cordy_Chase thanks. But just one thing, Angel killed Darla first in Season 1 ep 'Angel' not Buffy. Both Luke and Darla were probably still undead in The Wish reality but off elsewhere, Darla definitely showed interest in travel when she was with Angelus and after Sunnydale had been taken over she probably went in search of more excitement. As for Luke he may have gone with her, or was out on somekind of mission for the Master, it seems as if Xander and Willow the Master's second in commands at that time so I doubt Luke was in Sunnydale but he was probably still undead.
 
Shimmer said:
Interesting thread Cordy_Chase thanks. But just one thing, Angel killed Darla first in Season 1 ep 'Angel' not Buffy. Both Luke and Darla were probably still undead in The Wish reality but off elsewhere, Darla definitely showed interest in travel when she was with Angelus and after Sunnydale had been taken over she probably went in search of more excitement. As for Luke he may have gone with her, or was out on somekind of mission for the Master, it seems as if Xander and Willow the Master's second in commands at that time so I doubt Luke was in Sunnydale but he was probably still undead.
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Sorry about my mis-post. But Angel wouldn't have killed Darla if Darla didn't provoke the whole scenario with Angel & Buffy's mom. I think from what we saw in Angel S3 that he was OK with darla being undead so long as she wasn't harming those he cared about.
 
Cordy_Chase said:
Sorry about my mis-post. But Angel wouldn't have killed Darla if Darla didn't provoke the whole scenario with Angel & Buffy's mom. I think from what we saw in Angel S3 that he was OK with darla being undead so long as she wasn't harming those he cared about.
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Oh quite true Darla would probably be very much alive in The Wish reality because Buffy wasn't there for Angel to protect from her.
 
Darla left the Master once before... maybe she couldn't bare to see Angel all pathetic and soul-ahving, so she just took off. When he first got the soul she couldn't bear to be near him.
 
I'd imagine once Sunnydale became infested with Vampires and the Master rose, Luke and Darla would've been the most high-profile vamps, as they were his lieutenants. Which means they'd probably be the choice targets for the white hats. I'd imagine either Luke was taken out by Darla, and that a coordinated effort by Giles, Oz and company was enough to eliminate Darla.
 
WatcherWes said:
I'd imagine once Sunnydale became infested with Vampires and the Master rose, Luke and Darla would've been the most high-profile vamps, as they were his lieutenants. Which means they'd probably be the choice targets for the white hats. I'd imagine either Luke was taken out by Darla, and that a coordinated effort by Giles, Oz and company was enough to eliminate Darla.
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Both of those possibilities I would consider unlikely. Darla killing Luke maybe but only if Luke has done something to displease the Master. As for the White Hats killing Darla I find that extremely unlikely, they were no way near as coordinated or trained as say Holtz and his band and they had no luck killing Darla or Angelus so even without Angelus I doubt the White Hats could take Darla in a town basically run by the vampires
 
yeah, my bad about Darla taking out Luke. I meant to say Angel could of taken either Darla or Luke. And if he were to take one, that the whitehats could've ganged up on the other.
 
WatcherWes said:
yeah, my bad about Darla taking out Luke. I meant to say Angel could of taken either Darla or Luke. And if he were to take one, that the whitehats could've ganged up on the other.
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Possibly but we have to remember what Angel was like back during Season 1 of Buffy, he only took out Darla by staking her in the back and I honestly doubt he could have taken out Luke at that point, Angel from Buffy Season 3 onward, maybe even mid season 2 but definitely not Season 1, he was a bit pathetic in those days, thanks mostly due I would guess to living off only 1 rat a month for sometime in New York before Whistler.

At that point in time Darla and Luke are too strong to be taken out by a very weak Angel and White Hats with limited training (I mean they weren't stellar in The Wish and that was approx. three years after the Master had risen).

It is an outside possibility that what you said could have happened by I find it quite unlikely.
 
I think you're absolutley right, Shimmer. In WttH, Angel doesn't even go down into the sewers because "they don't like me". He also didn't want to hurt Darla, in AtS, S2, we find out he still sought her out for compainionship after he got the soul, so he still has feelings for her. He might have gone after Luke, though, failing miserably and getting locked in the cage.

Maybe Luke was destroyed in the Harvest, like a sacrifice or something to make it complete?
 
I definitely think Darla was dead somewhere because she was either with the Master (her sire) or Angelus as we saw that the two didn't get along. I can't imagine Darla not wanting to be a part of the chaos of The Wish.
 
eset said:
I think you're absolutley right, Shimmer. In WttH, Angel doesn't even go down into the sewers because "they don't like me". He also didn't want to hurt Darla, in AtS, S2, we find out he still sought her out for compainionship after he got the soul, so he still has feelings for her. He might have gone after Luke, though, failing miserably and getting locked in the cage.

Maybe Luke was destroyed in the Harvest, like a sacrifice or something to make it complete?
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Yeah I mean you notice in BtVS Season 1 Angel he doesn't go after Darla immediately on sight when she comes to his appartment. I can see Angel trying to stop the Harvest but being captured and taken before the Master and then imprisoned.

He says himself in the episode 'The Master Rose. He let me live... to punish me.'

It is possible Luke was destroyed by the Harvest ritual, he was feeding the Master by taking lives, drinking the blood. Its possible it was a suicide mission.

Cordy_Chase said:
I definitely think Darla was dead somewhere because she was either with the Master (her sire) or Angelus as we saw that the two didn't get along. I can't imagine Darla not wanting to be a part of the chaos of The Wish.
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However there were periods when Darla was alone, when was in Ireland before turning Liam into Angelus, periods when she and Angelus were separated. We don't know what she did for the 97 year period between 1900 and 1997, then she was alone for a period between her exit in Angel Season 2 and return in Angel Season 3. Darla can take care of herself, just because she maybe prefered the company of Angelus and was loyal to the Master doesn't mean that she wouldn't go elsewhere if she felt like it. And the chaos of the Wish would probably be boring her by now, okay she would want to be around for the initial slaughter and take over after the Master arose and maybe she even stayed and tried to rid Angel of his soul but I can see her getting bored, no excitement or thrill in a town basically overrun by vampires and obviously no success with ridding Angel of his soul if she tried it. I honestly don't see her being dead as there was no one around powerful enough to challenge a 400yr old vampire.
 
while in our reality, Angel was indeed too weak to make much of a stand in early season one, without a slayer around, he's the most powerful force for good in Sunnydale, and would likely have forced himself to get better faster. We've seen Angel snap himself out of a funk many a time when lives are on the line, and I'd imagine this would transcend any alternate reality.
 
WatcherWes said:
while in our reality, Angel was indeed too weak to make much of a stand in early season one, without a slayer around, he's the most powerful force for good in Sunnydale, and would likely have forced himself to get better faster. We've seen Angel snap himself out of a funk many a time when lives are on the line, and I'd imagine this would transcend any alternate reality.
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Honestly while I think what you said is a possibility you have to look to what happened to Angel in 'our' reality and then see if similar events occured in the alternate reality.
If you look at Angel's timeline of events in Buffy Seasons 1-3 two things really stick out as defining moments, the loss of his soul and him being sent to hell, those are really the two biggest factors in Angel's unlife in the first three seasons of Buffy. Now notice before he lost his soul even though he got significantly stronger he still wasn't anywhere near a match for Buffy (and I'm talking beginning of season 1 Buffy here). Now when he became Angelus again, he regained an edge, his fighting was significantly better especially the fight in Becoming Pt 2. Then he was sent to Hell, he returned and immediately in his feral state duked it out and killed the student turned Hyde in Beauty and the Beasts, his fighting is then significantly better that it ever had been before, both against Faith in Revelations, against the group of vamps with Spike and Buffy in Lover's Walk and also in the final fight with the Mayor's vamps in Graduation Day Pt 2. Honestly it looks to me like he needed that change into Angelus to regain the edge. Spike in Season 7 was very similar in this regard, I won't spoil anything.

We have never seen an Angel who has not used his abilities and skills for so long (ie between 1952 (this was probably the last time he really used them) and 1997) snap out of a funk. Sorry I just find it very unlikely that Angel could take out vamps as strong as Luke or Darla, a couple of lesser vamps yeah but not those two.
 
C
Cordelia
Good Points
I'm figuring that he would've had to climbed the ladder, so to speak. Take down a couple of garden variety vamps, then someone Darla or Luke sired, and then possibly Luke or Darla. I'm not saying he had to have done it, but that if they were killed, he's the most likely to have been the guy that took one of 'em down.
 
WatcherWes said:
I'm figuring that he would've had to climbed the ladder, so to speak. Take down a couple of garden variety vamps, then someone Darla or Luke sired, and then possibly Luke or Darla. I'm not saying he had to have done it, but that if they were killed, he's the most likely to have been the guy that took one of 'em down.
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Yeah okay I can agree with that, IF Darla or Luke were killed Angel is indeed the person most likely to have succeeded in the deed. But I would maintain that it is a big IF that they were killed.
 
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