The Lindsey Question.

[Jill_Valentine]

Our Lorne, he's a peaceable guy. He left his world and built a club in the name of pacifism, in fact. So his violent role in Not Fade Away was a bit of an unpleasant shock. The problem is, violence is an important part of the fight against evil in the Buffyverse. The most heroic characters are fighters, capable of tremendous violence. That it's violence against demons doesn't really matter, it's still about brute strength and bloody damage. Physical power and the willingness to use it. So I can't work out what horrified me more: That Lorne has given up on an ideal that he's dedicated his life to, or the suggestion that true heroism demands suppression of conscience.

Was Lorne a coward for abstaining from violence for so long, or was he weak to surrender his convictions regardless of circumstances?

I should warn: I've only seen NFA once, and then through a serious sugar high.

 

[Xander]

It wasn't really violence because he was violent, it was a "what must be done" kinda thing. Reminds me of the two World Wars, where people joint up not because they wanted to kill or die (or both), but because they felt they were doing the right thing. Lorne commited the violence but it was Angel who requested it, if it was Lorne's decision it would have probably been far different.

 

[SlayerThe]

The problem is, violence is an important part of the fight against evil in the Buffyverse. The most heroic characters are fighters, capable of tremendous violence. That it's violence against demons doesn't really matter, it's still about brute strength and bloody damage. Physical power and the willingness to use it. So I can't work out what horrified me more: That Lorne has given up on an ideal that he's dedicated his life to, or the suggestion that true heroism demands suppression of conscience.

That is all too true.

Honestly when everything goes down, you have to fight for the greater good. And whatever that entails. Lorne knew this, as did Buffy, Angel, Faith, Giles and countless other heros that we've seen

I do think that 'true heroism demands suppression of conscience'. What Giles did in the Gift may have been wrong, but in the end it was obviously right.

It really is like war in the fact that they're are casualties and horrible things that have to happen for the possibility of good. It may be wrong, but it's right.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I honestly cannot see any justification for Lorne killing Lindsey MacDonald. Why was it necessary to kill him in the first place? Lindsey wasn't even an immediate threat. And the excuse that he would probably commit further evil is certainly not a legitimate one.

As far as I'm concerned, what I had witnessed in "NFA" was pure murder and nothing else. If Lorne was doubtful about killing Lindsey, he should have followed his feelings. Instead, he will have to live with his conscience for the rest of his life that he became Angel's glorified hit man. 😡

 

[nerd4hire]

I know. That's a tough one, isn't it? You practically have to write your own background to make it make sense.

Like what I do is I tell myself Lorne must have had a private reading with Lindsey off screen where he learned something about Lindsey that necessitated killing him. Lorne and Angel do appear to have an unspoken understanding as to what needs to be done about Lindsey.

Season 5 is all about corruption, and how it blurs the lines to the point where you seem to be ready to break your own rules. Also Lorne was pretty messed up psychologically at that point. Still, I think they should have made Lorne's motivation clearer.

I have the same problem with Not Fade Away that I have with Chosen. It should have been 2 hours, so they could go into all that hidden background stuff.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I know. That's a tough one, isn't it? You practically have to write your own background to make it make sense.

Like what I do is I tell myself Lorne must have had a private reading with Lindsey off screen where he learned something about Lindsey that necessitated killing him. Lorne and Angel do appear to have an unspoken understanding as to what needs to be done about Lindsey.

Season 5 is all about corruption, and how it blurs the lines to the point where you seem to be ready to break your own rules. Also Lorne was pretty messed up psychologically at that point. Still, I think they should have made Lorne's motivation clearer.

I have the same problem with Not Fade Away that I have with Chosen. It should have been 2 hours, so they could go into all that hidden background stuff.

I didn't have any problems with "Chosen". What happened in that episode was the result of what was going on - especially in the past seven or eight episodes. "NFA" was another matter. Especially in regard to the Circle of the Black Thorn, which seemed so last minute.

What do you mean by "Lorne and Angel do appear to have an unspoken understanding as to what needs to be done about Lindsey." What exactly needed to be done about Lindsey? I guess that's the problem I have with the whole scenario. Because Lindsey didn't seem like an immediate threat. In fact, I had a problem in viewing the CotBT as an immediate threat, as well.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

What do you mean by "Lorne and Angel do appear to have an unspoken understanding as to what needs to be done about Lindsey."

The understanding is that Lindsey has to die and Lorne is to be the one to carry this out...

 

[nerd4hire]

I think there's more to the Lorne kills Lindsey scene that what you see at fiirst viewing. Watch I'll post it and hi-lite the parts I think might suggest more was happening behind the scenes than what we saw on the screen:

LINDSEY
Those guys were chumps.

LORNE
Now they're chunks. Demon strength or no, you're quite the master swordsman.

LINDSEY
Well, I couldn't have done it without that high note in MacArthur Park.

LORNE
Slays 'em every time.

LINDSEY
Any word on the rest of the team?

LORNE
For all I know, we are the rest of the team. I haven't heard squat.

LINDSEY
That's weird.
(turns off the water)

LORNE
They'll call.

LINDSEY
(dries his hands)
No, I mean me saying "team" and meaning it. I kind of like the feeling.

LORNE
Yeah, today.

LINDSEY
You really done with them?

LORNE
It isn't my kind of work anymore. It's unsavory.

LINDSEY
Gee, I think it's just getting interesting.

LORNE
Yeah, I bet you do.

LINDSEY
You don't trust me. You don't think a man can change?

LORNE
It's not about what I think. This was Angel's plan.
(sighs)

LINDSEY
Come on.
(smiles)
I could sing for you.

LORNE
I've heard you sing.
(takes out a gun with a silencer and shoots Lindsey twice in the chest)

LINDSEY
(stumbling back, looking at his wounds, then at Lorne)
Why"”why did you...

LORNE
One last job. You're not part of the solution, Lindsey. You never will be.

LINDSEY
(points at Lorne)
You kill me?
(collapses to the floor)
A flunky?! I'm not just... Angel...kills me. You don't... Angel...
(his rapid breathing comes to an end as his body goes limp)

LORNE
(sighs, looks down)
Good night, folks.
(drops gun on floor as he walks out)

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think there's more to the Lorne kills Lindsey scene that what you see at fiirst viewing. Watch I'll post it and hi-lite the parts I think might suggest more was happening behind the scenes than what we saw on the screen:

So what is this scene supposed to imply? That Lorne had forseen Lindsey becoming evil one day? Is this supposed to be justification for murder? Because it's not. As far as I'm concerned, Lorne had lowered himself to the worst thing possible - a murderer. And there is nothing that can excuse his behavior.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

If Lindsey had intentions of betraying the team, then Angel had every right to order Lorne to take him out.

When you're dealing with war and more importantly preventing an apocalypse, I'm not sure the word "murder" really comes into play as a valid term when dealing with the enemy...

 

[nerd4hire]

Lorne had lowered himself to the worst thing possible - a murderer. And there is nothing that can excuse his behavior.

I'm not sure an excuse is required here. Season 5 is about how power corrupts. Within that framework the most passivist character becomes violent.

The writers made the point they were trying to make. They don't have to excuse Lorne's actions or their own. Some people won't get it. Oh well.

The human mind does crave explanation though. We want to know how a character gets from point A to point B. We want it to make sense. The explanation may be "it's a wacky farce and nothing makes sense", but that's OK, as long as you can explain it.

The NFA passage above suggests to me

1. Lorne is messed up psychologically - "LORNE
It isn't my kind of work anymore. It's unsavory".

2. Lorne was aware of something evil Lindsey would do in the future - LINDSEY
(dries his hands)
No, I mean me saying "team" and meaning it. I kind of like the feeling.

LORNE
Yeah, today.

also

"I've heard you sing".

3. Angel arranged what was about to happen, and was therefore also in on whatever Lorne knew. - "LORNE
It's not about what I think. This was Angel's plan.
(sighs)"

I crave an explanation, and so I create one out of the text. It's not an excuse for Lorne's actions. From a story perspective the character doesn't require one. It's a dark story. Dark things are going to happen.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I'm not sure an excuse is required here. Season 5 is about how power corrupts. Within that framework the most passivist character becomes violent.

The writers made the point they were trying to make. They don't have to excuse Lorne's actions or their own. Some people won't get it. Oh well.

The human mind does crave explanation though. We want to know how a character gets from point A to point B. We want it to make sense. The explanation may be "it's a wacky farce and nothing makes sense", but that's OK, as long as you can explain it.

The NFA passage above suggests to me

1. Lorne is messed up psychologically - "LORNE
It isn't my kind of work anymore. It's unsavory".

2. Lorne was aware of something evil Lindsey would do in the future - LINDSEY
(dries his hands)
No, I mean me saying "team" and meaning it. I kind of like the feeling.

LORNE
Yeah, today.

also

"I've heard you sing".

3. Angel arranged what was about to happen, and was therefore also in on whatever Lorne knew. - "LORNE
It's not about what I think. This was Angel's plan.
(sighs)"

I crave an explanation, and so I create one out of the text. It's not an excuse for Lorne's actions. From a story perspective the character doesn't require one. It's a dark story. Dark things are going to happen.

You're right. There is no excuse.

I really despise it when people think it is okay to use evil to "fight evil". It's like they would use any excuse to indulge in their blood lust. This reminds me of what Buffy once said to Giles "“ that it's not right to use evil to fight evil. And I heartily agree. If there is one problem I've always with ANGEL is that I have always disliked the main character. Ordering Lorne to kill Lindsey, when the latter wasn't an immediate threat truly made me despise him. What a cowardly bastard! He couldn't do it himself. Even worse, Lorne was idiot for following his order. It probably destroyed him. It's like you said - Season 5 was a dark story.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

But do we really know that Lindsey wasn't an immediate threat? From the transcript, one may think that Lorne and Angel, through Lorne's psychic abilities, knew something about Lindsey's intentions that the audience wasn't clued in about.

What we do know about Lorne would suggest that it would take very extreme circumstances to enable him to act as he did in Not Fade Away.

 

[nerd4hire]

I really despise it when people think it is okay to use evil to "fight evil". It's like they would use any excuse to indulge in their blood lust. This reminds me of what Buffy once said to Giles "“ that it's not right to use evil to fight evil. And I heartily agree. If there is one problem I've always with ANGEL is that I have always disliked the main character. Ordering Lorne to kill Lindsey, when the latter wasn't an immediate threat truly made me despise him. What a cowardly bastard! He couldn't do it himself. Even worse, Lorne was idiot for following his order. It probably destroyed him. It's like you said - Season 5 was a dark story.

Here's the thing though. I don't think the writers are saying it's a good thing to get evil to fight evil. I think they're saying you get corrupted when you do and it ain't pretty.

You could do it the other way I guess. You could just have your hero spend an hour turning the other cheek, standing in front of Wolfram&Hart protesting with placards, and preaching about what takes to be truly good, but wouldn't that be boring? 🙂

 

[Xander]

You could do it the other way I guess. You could just have your hero spend an hour turning the other cheek, standing in front of Wolfram&Hart protesting with placards, and preaching about what takes to be truly good, but wouldn't that be boring? 🙂

And it doesnt work, look at the save Angel campaign last year. (Curses!)

Anyway one thing I've always liked about Angel is he's the anti-hero. When hes son was kidnapped he didn't spent his time getting cross and crying, he went out there, found who he though was responsible, tied him to a chair, threatened him then dropped him down the stairs. It ain't all cowpokes anymore.

Angel couldn't kill Lindsey himself no, it needed to all be done together and Angel had a better chance at killing Hamilton than Lorne did.

 

[nerd4hire]

Also Lorne would be the one guy besides Angel who believed Lindsey needed to be assassinated.

If Lorne knew Lindsey was going to cause the end of the world should he have offed him?

Possibly the old Lorne would have answered no, but this new Lorne has gone through a crisis of faith since the death of Fred. His one special talent that made him feel connected to the divine failed him. He didn't see what happened to Fred coming. He couldn't expect anyone else to believe in his talent enough to ask them to kill someone. It's his responsibility.

He's desperate to have things make sense again. He's messed up. His questionable ability is telling him Lindsey needs to be eliminated, and he's the only one he can expect to have enough faith in him to do it. Killing Lindsey wasn't an act of strength. It was an act of desperation.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Here's the thing though. I don't think the writers are saying it's a good thing to get evil to fight evil. I think they're saying you get corrupted when you do and it ain't pretty.

I didn't think that the writers were trying to say that, as well. What I was trying to say was that I despise Angel and Lorne for what they did to Lindsey. If the writers were conveying that their actions were wrong - which I believe they were - then they had accomplished their goal with me.

 

[nerd4hire]

OK, I think I'm beginning to get your point then.

NFA in particular, and Season 5 in general creates a kind of moral paradox where it seems to be contradicting itself in order to suggest an underlying truth.

It's actually a cautionary tale warning of the complexities that create the whole power corrupts idea. At the same time there's a level where you can't help saying, "get em any way you can Angel".

It isn't unusual for writers to do this kind of thing though. The Godfather is not pro-mob, but I know a lot of people who watch it and on a gut level think "It would be cool to have that kind of power."

Apocalypse Now is an anti-war movie, yet the Robert Duval character is a war lover, and even though you may object to everything he stands for, you can't help having a kind of surface level admiration for his particular kind of insanity.

Clockwork Orange is not about loving the 'ol ultra-violence', yet some people watch it and do.

I don't consider myself a bad person, but I love all three of those movies. I love Not Fade Away too. My only complaint with NFA is there should have been more of it.

 

[LadyLavinia]

OK, I think I'm beginning to get your point then.

NFA in particular, and Season 5 in general creates a kind of moral paradox where it seems to be contradicting itself in order to suggest an underlying truth.

It's actually a cautionary tale warning of the complexities that create the whole power corrupts idea. At the same time there's a level where you can't help saying, "get em any way you can Angel".

It isn't unusual for writers to do this kind of thing though. The Godfather is not pro-mob, but I know a lot of people who watch it and on a gut level think "It would be cool to have that kind of power."

Apocalypse Now is an anti-war movie, yet the Robert Duval character is a war lover, and even though you may object to everything he stands for, you can't help having a kind of surface level admiration for his particular kind of insanity.

Clockwork Orange is not about loving the 'ol ultra-violence', yet some people watch it and do.

I don't consider myself a bad person, but I love all three of those movies. I love Not Fade Away too. My only complaint with NFA is there should have been more of it.

I understand that Season 5 is a cautionary tale. I had predicted that the season would end unhappily or ambiguously, long before "NFA" had aired. I'm not surprised that he did it. I knew that Angel would screw up in the long run. Even though I understood it, I still didn't care for what he and Lorne had done. And to be honest, I didn't care for the season's writing, post-"You're Welcome". It seemed rushed. The appearance of the Circle of the Black Thorn in the episode before the last, made this painfully clear.

 

[nerd4hire]

And yet I loved the way they built on the Season 5 theme post You're Welcome. Oh well...different strokes.

As far as Lorne killing Lindsey goes though, I think it's possible to like the episode, and yet still not condone the idea of killing someone if things don't go right for you, and I sincerely don't believe Joss ever wanted anybody to take that lesson away with them after watching NFA.