the Mindwipe - what do you think happened in the new memories?

[King of Hell]

1- how was Jasmine born if Connor wasn't there to create the vessel?
2- how did Wesley sleep with Lilah if the AI team haven't abandoned him?
3- how was Holtz plan resolved?

there are a lot of questions, those are the ones on top of my head.

I can answer #3, Holtz never came back at all, the easiest solution. but how about #1 & #2? its impossible to write new memories of those 2 without Connor.

 

[Kana]

1- how was Jasmine born if Connor wasn't there to create the vessel?
2- how did Wesley sleep with Lilah if the AI team haven't abandoned him?
3- how was Holtz plan resolved?

there are a lot of questions, those are the ones on top of my head.

I can answer #3, Holtz never came back at all, the easiest solution. but how about #1 & #2? its impossible to write new memories of those 2 without Connor.

This question simply wasn't answered in the show. All we know is that Jasmine came forth, somehow, Wes went through a period of darkness that led him to sleep with Lilah and toughen up. In other words, although we don't know exactly what happened, we know that Cyvus Vail created a bunch of memories very similar perhaps with subtle differences to explain the things that would have been explained by the existence of Connor.

Holtz was never mentioned but Sahjhan was. It wouldn't be crazy to admit the possibility that their memory of Holtz is intact if Sahjhan appeared in the rewritten memories. If anything I'd argue that Holtz was present in their new memories for the simple fact that everything else was more or less exactly the same apart from the existence of Connor. If we ask how does Holtz fit into it, then we could ask the same about Sahjhan.

 

[King of Hell]

This question simply wasn't answered in the show. All we know is that Jasmine came forth, somehow, Wes went through a period of darkness that led him to sleep with Lilah and toughen up. In other words, although we don't know exactly what happened, we know that Cyvus Vail created a bunch of memories very similar perhaps with subtle differences to explain the things that would have been explained by the existence of Connor.

Holtz was never mentioned but Sahjhan was. It wouldn't be crazy to admit the possibility that their memory of Holtz is intact if Sahjhan appeared in the rewritten memories. If anything I'd argue that Holtz was present in their new memories for the simple fact that everything else was more or less exactly the same apart from the existence of Connor. If we ask how does Holtz fit into it, then we could ask the same about Sahjhan.

Yeah I know it wasn't answered, that's why I wanted to discuss it.
-Holtz came
-Sahjan wrote a prophecy that Angel would die if he stays
-Holtz killed Darla
-Wesley helped Holtz get Angel somehow
-Justine double crosses Wesley & traps Angel under the ocean
-Lorne tells the gang about Wesley
-Gunn kicks him out
-Wesley goes dark
-Wesley kills Holtz & imprisons Justine until he finds Angel
-Angel creates the vessel by sleeping with Cordelia

those are the major points in Connor's involvement, of course it has a lot of plot holes & need a lot of details. but its the only thing I could come up with.
though Season 5 implies that Wesley never left his friends or betrayed Angel, I don't Wesley would sleep with Lilah if he was still with his friends. he dumped her as soon as they took him back.

Wesley & Lilah's relationship is what bugs me most about the mindwipe, there is no possible way to rewrite their relationship without Connor. everything can be rewritten except how they got to have a relationship.

 

[Big Damn Hero]

In the screen-caps that flash on screen when the light thingy is de-activated, it shows a picture of Lilah and Wesley, which leads me to assume that Wesley has no memory of his relationship with her.

 

[Kana]

In the screen-caps that flash on screen when the light thingy is de-activated, it shows a picture of Lilah and Wesley, which leads me to assume that Wesley has no memory of his relationship with her.

But then in Lineage he makes a direct reference to their relationship.

Going back to the OP, I suppose my issue is that without evidence of what exactly happened it's virtually fan fiction. All I'd assume is that everything that happened, happened apart from Connor and the events had some other cause, i.e. Wes was estranged, Angel fought Sahjhan, Darla appeared but was dusted, Holtz turned up etc.

 

[Big Damn Hero]

The only thing we know for sure is that Wes never betrayed Angel in the false memories. But we don't know if he was estranged or it never happened or what.

& I forgot about the Linage thing. My ex has my Angel DVDs and I don't want to have to get in touch to ask for them back, but at the same time I need them goddammit! (/hijack, long story short I haven't watched it in agesssss).

 

[GrrArghx]

I never got the impression Wesley's betrayal was completely wiped. Can anyone explain how it was implied he didn't betray Angel, somehow at least, in the fake memories?

 

[white avenger]

Possibly the whole thing was handled like the Ben/Glory connection was on "Buffy." As soon as anyone mentioned anything pertaining to the inconsistencies between true and manufactured reality, they completely forgot about it.

 

[Tome]

I like how you bring a lot of good questions in your threads King of Hell! Always interesting stuffs. I got to say I always wondered about this. It was never explained clearly in season 5... Just like they didn't clearly show what happened with Connor and Angel. I guess it was made like that so we make our own versions ;P

 

[King of Hell]

thanks Zalos.

I never got the impression Wesley's betrayal was completely wiped. Can anyone explain how it was implied he didn't betray Angel, somehow at least, in the fake memories?

When Wesley got back his memories, he was shocked that he betrayed Angel. he practically went crazy. it was never confirmed, but it was heavily implied.

Possibly the whole thing was handled like the Ben/Glory connection was on "Buffy." As soon as anyone mentioned anything pertaining to the inconsistencies between true and manufactured reality, they completely forgot about it.

I don't think so, When Wesley got his memories back, he said he has 2 sets of memories now, & is trying to push the real memories away. if its like Ben/Glory, it'd be just 1 set of memories, & he'll get the clouded memories back.

When the monks created Dawn, they gave Buffy & the rest a new set of memories, adding Dawn wouldn't make that much inconsistency,but removing something from someone's memories is very complicated I guess.

the only thing I see as impossible is Wesley & Lilah's relationship, if Wesley never betrayed Angel, he'll never go dark. Wesley was very close to Angel, unlike Gunn, so without the betrayal I don't think he'd be estranged. & that Wesley would never sleep with Lilah, he dumped her as soon as he got his friends back, I kinda felt sorry for Lilah lol.