The Most Disgusting Thing!

[Kelsey]

I really agree. While I personally am not a big fan of porn or prostitution, as a libertarian, I'm well aware that other women may enjoy such lifestyles. And that's entirely their prerogative--provided it's their choice and they're not being trafficked.

I think the feminists who believe that any sexual interaction between a male and a female is rape by definition are just insane. There's no reasoning with them. And it makes me wonder what in the world drove them to believe such a thing?

I agree. To me, in defining rape the way she did, this crazy person made women the victims she so desperately wants them not to be. She made is as if women have no choice, and cannot stand up to men when they are pressuring them for sex. Yet, isn't this exactly what she doesn't want women to be? I just... can't understand her logic. And she's had women who have been raped comment and say that they are offended, and she won't reply. Is she really on the side of the feminists, then? I just... I don't get it. At all.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

I love how shes just like "wash is a rapist and a womanizer because ive had bad childhood experiences". WTF? And it really cracks me up that some people in comments talk about wash and zoe's relationship:

"How you pointed out that the way in which Wash treats Zoe isn't loving but LUDE! He even pats her butt in one episode! And when he is talking to the Alliance guy about her legs and watching her bathe - I mean c'mon! I don't even let my husband watch me bathe because I know he is leering and leering is NOT permitted! Not with me! Men - that is NOT love it is just lust when you 'admire' your wife's body like that!"

I guess these people don't know any part of a sexual relationship. MY boyfriend pats my butt all the time, even in public *gasp*. I dont find it objectifying, i think its funny. And if my boyfriend wants to "leer" at me in bath, well then let it lead to happy endings lol. But i just feel like what an uptight way of viewing a relationship, where is the fun and sex appeal then?

 

[Rack]

I agree. To me, in defining rape the way she did, this crazy person made women the victims she so desperately wants them not to be. She made is as if women have no choice, and cannot stand up to men when they are pressuring them for sex. Yet, isn't this exactly what she doesn't want women to be? I just... can't understand her logic. And she's had women who have been raped comment and say that they are offended, and she won't reply. Is she really on the side of the feminists, then? I just... I don't get it. At all.

I referred my friend to this thread (and article) and she referred me to this one:

The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferretts Journal - The Open-Source Boob Project

I think in 2009 we can come to the agreement that whatever it is you do with other consenting adults, who is anyone to judge? I'd like to believe that women should be free to do with their bodies whatever it is that they want...Kelsey is right, the suggestion that sex workers and women who engage in "traditional" gender role-play--consensually--are doing something wrong is to place a yoke of expectation on women's behaviour that is really no different from the expectation that all women should be barefoot, silent, and pregnant in the kitchen. It is oppressive. And to toss the word "rape" around so flippantly, to imply that Joss Whedon is a rapist, is both an accusation of a felony and a demeaning of real victims of this atrocious crime.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

Before a discussion on feminism can take place, we must first define "feminism." And for us to do that, we must define "sexism." As a feminist, a woman, and a person, I define sexism as the social distinction between the genders and subsequent judgments and actions based on that. Given that, feminism is the lack of distinction between the genders: the view that men adn women are equal. What Alecto fails to understand is that by citing every time a woman calls a man "sir," has sex with a man, or even jokes with a man, she is setting the standard for a new wave of sexism, one disguised as feminism. By so carefully distinguishing the genders, she is meeting the definition of sexism and defying the definition of feminism. Instead of seeing the world, and, in this instance, Firefly, as full of men and women, we should instead be seeing a world, and a spaceship, filled with people.

Alecto's first complaint is Zoe, a woman, referring to Mal, a man, as "sir." What she seems to see is a woman displaying her subservience and inferiority to a man. She sees this as a solid example of a glorified patriarchy. What I suggest is really happening is a person referring to a professionally superior person in a respectful manner. To help further this view, I suggest we imagine the situation in reverse. Let us imagine Mal, a man, refers to Zoe, a woman, as "ma'am." Would this be a solid example of a glorified matriarchy? Would be a man displaying his subservience and inferiority to a woman? Is that even feminism? On all three counts, absolutely not.

In discussing Inara, we must again discuss definitions. What is the definition of rape? Rape is any nonconsentual sexual behaviors. That definition of course refers to adults, but it will do for this discussion. Inara is a consenting adult. She actively seeks out sexual partners and even demands respect from them. She does what she wants how she wants and is in no way getting raped. She wants to have sex. Alecto's assertion that anyone having sex for profit must be being raped is absurd. Why else have sex but for profit? Monetary profit is only one kind and just happens to be one of the things Inara asks for. Again, I must reiterate that she likes what she does. In no way is she being raped or displaying any form of sexism. In fact, by being in control of own sexuality, she may even be considered feminist.

Another issue Alecto has is the joke made about Kaylee. She is upset that Mal wants to throw her in the hold. Of course, he does not actually want to do that. It is a joke and, as the pilot episode, is meant to set up the character of Kaylee as a perpetually happy person. And again, Alecto proves her lack of actual feminism by distinguishing the genders. To her, Kaylee is nothing but a woman and Mal is nothing but a man. Instead, they are both people. A person makes a joke about locking up a person. If we cannot see the world as being full of people, how will we ever combat sexism?

Frankly, this "article" disgusts me and I get kind of angry every time I read it. It makes me sick and the worst part is that this is just furthering the general idea that "feminism" is hating men. Feminism is about equality; it is not about women being better than men. And we can never achieve equality as long as every time a woman says something nice to a man, she gets jumped on for being sexist. As Joss Whedon said in his Equality Now speech, feminism and equality are so much apart of what we need, it shouldn't even be remarked upon because *that* right there is true sexism.

 

[pieceofgosa]

faerigrrl27, brilliantly written & insightful post. Kudos. Anybody else think it would be funny to watch Alecto watch Dollhouse?!? Methinks her head might explode & do us all a favour, course she might secretly be a dude 🙂

 

[Tome]

I just read that article and lol... I must agree with those who said it got them annoyed. It's also ridiculous how enraged 'she' sounds like.

There isn't much to add here honestly, Faeriegrr said it best. But I have to point out how ironic it is that after all she complained about, that she sounded pretty much racist. Keep referring to how a 'white' man and 'black' woman couldn't have an healthy relationship, wtf? For me she lost all credibility right there... not that she had much to start with. SIR, YES SIR(did she ever heard of the army?)!!

 

[BuffyElevated]

This woman OBVIOUSLY has some SERIOUS, seriously disturbing issues. Wow... This article takes the cake.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

My best friend is black and married to a white guy. They've been married almost 10 years and he's a wonderful dad to her son (not his biologically) and their relationship is very healthy. I'm guessing they are just one example of many. This woman's an idiot. I agree about everyone calling Mal "sir." What else would they call him? Zoe's character is strong and tough. her husband is the wussier of the two really (though "wussy" has to be relative here). I thought the Firefly take on prostitution was really interesting.

 

[DrusillaDarling]

i read this a really long time a go, and i am ashamed to admit it turned me off of feminism completely. I read it and just went 'I can't be feminist. i can't think like this." until my mother one day just went. "Zoe of course your feminist."

It's truly a pity that these so called feminists are the most vocal, giving the general public bad info.


Number One: The point of view of a character is NOT the same as the point of view as the witter.

I write myself, and many of my characters have beliefs I could never agree with.

Number two:

The first scene opens in a war with Mal and Zoe. Zoe runs around calling Mal "˜sir' and taking orders off him. I roll my eyes. Not a good start.

What? Is there something wrong with respecting your boss. Honestly.

Number three: Inara is not being raped. She knows what she is doing. She is a big girl and is making her own choices. She can stop when ever she wants.

Number four:

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joss uses his own wife in this way. Expects her to clean up his emotional messes. Expects her to be there, eternally supportive, eternally subservient and grateful to him in all his manly glory. I hope the money is worth it, Mrs. Whedon. But somehow I doubt that it is. No amount of money can buy back wasted emotional resources.

No, just no. talk about the characters in any way you want. there not real. but it is not okay to talk like that about something you know nothing about.

five:

By the word rivalry, I mean violent, homoerotic male/male courtship conducted over the body of a woman.

just shut up

six:

Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour.

this is personal to me, because my father was black and my mother white. the separated when I was a baby. because he was an ass, it had nothing to do with race or anything.

also, if you don't want to see your partner naked, maybe you should rethink something 😉

seven:

So the "˜woman' sitting by the driver of the carriage is actually Mal in drag. Shock, surprise, this is real funny shit huh, women? A man in drag, teeheehee. SO radical. And feminist, huh? What do you think, does Joss get a cookie?

huh?

eight:

I am a mystery," he says of his enjoyment of wearing dresses. Sorry, Joss, score zero for that one. Women aren't a mystery, WE ARE FULLY CONSCIOUS HUMAN BEINGS.

yes we are, but we are also mysteries. so are men. so is everyone.

nine:

White male husband wishing his black female wife was more submissive and cooked his dinner. Anyone else see a problem with this

i think its made very clear Wash love Zoe Just the way she is. but really, its fun being cooked for. and He isn't demanding that Zoe make him, he just thinks it would be nice. its not like he pushed it.

ten:

I see two rapists. Only difference is that one is in a two-dollar-shop disguise as a unicorn.

I'm I the only one who finds that vision hilarious?

eleven:

Sigh. Men are such dicks.

I'll give you that darling, but us women ain't such a walk in the park

twelve:

So Saffron quotes her planet's bible at Mal. Remember these words were written by the great feminist Joss Whedon.

if joss did write the bible, i think i might read it.

thristeen:

then she stop acquiescing to her own rape

doesn't acquiescing mean it wasn't rape? I have never been raped, so i guess there is not much i can say on the matter

fourteen: In Mal's defense, if yosafbrigde showed up naked in my bedroom i would have done the same thing. I'm not proud of it, but there you go

fifteen:

Interlude: Feminism: The Joss Whedon Way.
Rote learn the following:
- Women lie. About everything really, but mostly they lie about rape, child abuse, sexual assault and harassment, male violence in the home, male violence in the street etc. Women lie and lie and lie. They can't help it. They don't even have a reason for lying, they just do it. It's biological"¦ and pathological"¦ but still very wrong.

I think i missed that part of the series

sixteen:

Early visits Inara too. Again, inflicting pain on a woman by hitting her. Not because he has to. Neither Inara or Kaylee are a physical threat to him in the same way that Mal and Book are portrayed.

HE'S A BAD GUY


And really, just take a joke.

I kinda wonder what she thought about the spock/uhura thing 🙂

Also, I find nothing wrong with fan service. if that is the only thing the character is for, then yeah, that sucks. but i don't get my panties in a twist when Buffy wears a short skirt. Plus Spike and Angel were shirtless all the time

And yes, I do think more work needs to be done for equality for women in the media, but Joss is doing a pretty good job


wow, that was long. sorry for my little rant

 

[Connor Holtz]

This woman is F'N insane. She openly says she hates men. She openly says all prostitution is rape and even has the nerve to say consensual heterosexual sex is rape. I seriously hope most feminists think nothing like this cause she puts a seriously bad name to feminism IMO.

 

[This Year's Girl]

I'm really glad that this thread has mostly been about pointing out the faults in the article and not in feminism. The debate has been really reasonable and factual. It just proves what I've know all along, people on this board are really smart. This is the way I see it:

[highlight] The most common definition of feminism is: fem·i·nism (f m -n z m). n. 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief. [/highlight]

I am a feminist and I stand by this definition. What that woman wrote in that article is not feministic.

There are always extremist that twist the words of a movement. Some christians think that gay people deserves to burn in hell, some feminists hate men. This does not define the whole movement or the people who support it. These extrimists should not under any circumstances be allowed to take the name of something that has the potential to do a lot of good for mankind and pass it off as something it's not. Let's not let them. Let's prove to people what a feminist really sounds like:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs[/ame]

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

Connor Holtz agrees: This woman is just off her rocker. I read a few of the comments hoping a true feminist pointed out the error of her thinking.... sadly, it didn't happen.

First of all - LOL at the expression of her rocker! 😀 And yeah, it really is sad. But now we got an whole joss army that feels other wise (maybe we should refer to joss as sir then if he is the leader? Oh wait... you can do it 'cause you're a man, but not me 😀), so we really should get in there and set her straight!

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

How old is she? I find her...disquieting.

🙁

---------- Post added at 02:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 AM ----------

I'm reading more of her blog. Some of the people that comment on her blog are like a bunch Daughters of the Amazon (Y: The Last Man). [shudder] I just read this comment.


"OMg Allecto, when I started reading this post I though tto myself, "˜Gosh, I disagree with Allecto' and then after reading the disclaimer I got all happy.
I agree with you 100%. The law will never be on the women's side until and unless we destroy mankind.
Women will be so happy once that happens. This world will be such a wonderful place."

Uh, no. I'd like the human race to go on.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

This woman is F'N insane. She openly says she hates men. She openly says all prostitution is rape and even has the nerve to say consensual heterosexual sex is rape. I seriously hope most feminists think nothing like this cause she puts a seriously bad name to feminism IMO.

No need to worry! Real feminism is nothing like that. A lot of people don't like to identify as feminists, but when you get down to it, they usually are. Do they believe in the equal rights and treatment of men and women? OMG a feminist! It's people like Allecto who make people not want to identify as feminists. It's sad and sickening and I sincerely hope she doesn't turn you off feminism!