The Nature of Blame in Buffy and Angel's Relationship

[Kean]

I've just read through the Angel: An Abusive Boyfriend thread and I noticed that several times people remarked how Angel making decisions for Buffy was amoral. From what I can see there are two incidents that stand out; Angel's leaving Sunnydale and IWRY. I think we are all agreed that both of these decisions were ultimately for the greater good and needed to be me made? However, Angel is also tarred and feathered for making these decisions and seemingly betraying Buffy.

Ok, then I pose this question to you: why isn't Buffy's sending Angel to Hell viewed in the same manner? She didn't consult him in this choice (of course she didn't have time for such luxuries and despite what Angel petulantly tries to convince Spike of in Rome years later, he most certainly did not indicate with his eyes for her to plunge the knife in) but she did commit a great wrong against someone she dearly loved.

On a similar note what do you think if Buffy's decision to stay awayfrom Angel and not resume a relationship in the first half of season three? Angel was clearly vulnerable and needed her. She was the only person in the whole world who could help him heal after his stint as Angelus and in Hell but she severed contact with him because she knew they could never be in a relationship, at least not the way they wanted to be?

In both cases Buffy is regarded is being brave and noble and doing what had to be done (I agree with this POV too) I'm curious though why in somewhat similar situations Angel faces the wrath of the fans?

Is it because he is so willing to accept blame and guilt that we are more willing to attribute them to him? Even when he isn't necessarily guilty?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

As I do love Buffy and Angel, I don't see how you can compare Buffy sending Angel to Hell and Angel leaving town. For Buffy, killing Angel was one of the hardest things she had to do, if not THE hardest. Angelus tried to open Hell on Earth, and he almost did, and what should she do? Make that happen. No, and that's why she's the hero. She had to do that, to save all the other people, and well, we saw what effect it left on her. Angel left town, that was his own choice. It wasn't for saving all the living things on this planet, it was because he wanted to save Buffy. He knew that with him around her heart is going to be so soft, and he left because he wanted to save her of that feeling. I'm not judging him for leaving, but also, I'm not going to judge Buffy for sending him to Hell. They both had good reasons for their actions. And I'm not going to start on IWRY, because like some people, I don't see anything wrong in it.

 

[Willow-Tree]

No, I'm sorry, but Buffy sending Angel to Hell was an entirely different act than Angel leaving Sunnydale for LA. Buffy NEEDED to, or there was a risk of Angelus coming back. Angel left just to let Buffy have a life.

 

[Kean]

No, I'm sorry, but Buffy sending Angel to Hell was an entirely different act than Angel leaving Sunnydale for LA. Buffy NEEDED to, or there was a risk of Angelus coming back. Angel left just to let Buffy have a life.

I was more comparing IWRY and Buffy sending Angel to Hell but since you mentioned it Buffy needed to send Angel to Hell to prevent the world ending however, Angel left to give her a chance at a life but also to erradicate the possibility of Angelus coming back that their staying together posed.

Ok, I admit Buffy really didn't have a choice with Becoming but I do think they both make choices for eachother because it is the right thing to do. Angel isn't the only one in their relationship that has done that.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I agree. She also "decided" something for him, because she belived that was the right thing to do. They both belived that they have to power to control, in one hand they did, but in the other, that was destroying them. I don't know how to compare Angel's actions in IWRY and Buffy's in Becoming Part II. Angel had a choice, but he didn't want to risk her life and life of the others, but I really don't see that Buffy had a choice. I can't judge them. I admire Buffy for doing that, I don't know how many people would find that kind of strenght. As for Angel, I understand why he did that, when I'm thinking with my brain, but when my heart has the lead word, it's saying that I would never forgive Angel for throwing that perfect chance of happiness. I just know that because of their actions I got my two favourite episodes.

 

[GrrArghx]

I don't see the wrong in either of them making the decisions they made for each other. They both had their reasons, and they both knew they had to make them themselves in spite of what they other would think about. Angel made the decision to give back his humanity because he knew if he told Buffy it would be that much harder, and it probably wouldn't have been able to go through with it. Just like, Buffy made the decision to force him to feed from her to save his life. It's not the exact same thing, no. But the point is, in the end they make those decisions for each other. That's what makes their love so great... because making those decisions is selfless not selfish.

If Angel had've stayed in Sunnydale, it would've been for the selfish reason that he loved Buffy. He knew he was putting her in danger and he couldn't give her what he thought she deserved and by leaving he was letting her have her life. That isn't selfish at all. If he have've kept his humanity, that would've been selfish because he would have been putting Buffy in danger.

If Buffy hadn't have sent Angel to hell, the entire world would've been destroyed. If Buffy hadn't have made Angel drink from her, he would have died. She didn't care that she could've died in the process.

All of that proves how unselfish they really are towards one another. So, I honestly don't see how Angel nor Buffy are in the wrong for the decisions they made. In the end, it's all for the greater good... and it's all for the well-being of one another.

 

[Kean]

I don't see the wrong in either of them making the decisions they made for each other. They both had their reasons, and they both knew they had to make them themselves in spite of what they other would think about. Angel made the decision to give back his humanity because he knew if he told Buffy it would be that much harder, and it probably wouldn't have been able to go through with it. Just like, Buffy made the decision to force him to feed from her to save his life. It's not the exact same thing, no. But the point is, in the end they make those decisions for each other. That's what makes their love so great... because making those decisions is selfless not selfish.

If Angel had've stayed in Sunnydale, it would've been for the selfish reason that he loved Buffy. He knew he was putting her in danger and he couldn't give her what he thought she deserved and by leaving he was letting her have her life. That isn't selfish at all. If he have've kept his humanity, that would've been selfish because he would have been putting Buffy in danger.

If Buffy hadn't have sent Angel to hell, the entire world would've been destroyed. If Buffy hadn't have made Angel drink from her, he would have died. She didn't care that she could've died in the process.

All of that proves how unselfish they really are towards one another. So, I honestly don't see how Angel nor Buffy are in the wrong for the decisions they made. In the end, it's all for the greater good... and it's all for the well-being of one another.

Personally this is how I feel too but I just wondered if others viewed it differently. I find that Angel takes alot of flak that I don't think he deserves and wondered how people felt about Buffy when she makes decisions that had huge reprecussions for Angel.

🙂

 

[Kana]

I can't really think of any decisions Buffy has made for Angel. Even her attempting to stay away from him in Lover's Walk wasn't followed through. Angel does tend to make more of the decisions that affect Buffy's life without consulting her. The problem with this has two sides. Either Angel did the wrong thing (which I don't necessarily think he did) or if he did the right thing, the fact that he has to make such decisions isn't really an adequete defence for their relationship. She can be emotional and certainly was in their relationship. Part of that was because it's part of her personality, part of it was because she was a teenager for the entirety of their relationship and in her own words had yet to mature. Of course of her progidy as a Slayer notwithstanding, she didn't appear much more emotionally mature when it came to relationships than any other young person (Joyce was right!!). If our brooding hero has to step in such situations, is this a good thing?

Of course without getting off track we need to look at whether Angel was to blame. In terms of this particular issue, yes. More than Buffy anyway. I'm not saying that she's been perfect regarding their relationship but I'm struggling to come up with many decisions she's made on his behalf. The decision to feed herself to Angel was perhaps the closest I can think of off the top of my head but even that's dependent on how much control Angel has over his inner demon. It's debatable at best but that's another debate really. It's certainly not a given anyway.

All this said. I don't think he ever had nefarious intentions nor did her ever show signs of attempting to control Buffy for his own benefit. He certainly wasn't emotionally abusive, not with a soul anyway. The most he can be accused of is being overprotective of her. We cannot seperate the love from the lover and it will be as flawed as the lover. However if this is his flaw, it's hardly the worst one.

 

[white avenger]

Arguing about why Angel actually left Sunnydale at the end of Season 3 is like arguing why Spike didn't try to find Buffy after he materialized in Angel's office in LA. Angel was moving to a new (his own) series, and so was Spike. Anything beyond that was just the writers trying to come up with the least lame of lame excuses for Joss' arbitrary decision.

As for "I will remember You," if we look at the events that followed, primarily the births of Connor and Jasmine, it looks suspiciously like Angel was manipulated by the Powers into making that decision, so they have to at least share the blame tor that, if not take full responsibility. Buffy's fate was sealed. She would die within less than two years protecting a human. Angel's "sacrifice" accomplished absolutely nothing.

As for Buffy supposedly making the decision to send Angel to hell at the end of Season 2, that misconception was cleared up in Season 5 of Angel's own show. Angel actually MADE Buffy stab him by signaling her with his eyes. Their love was so great that she could understand that signal even though his eyes were closed at the time.

Buffy and Angel are soul mates to a degree that knows no limits. Their hearts, minds, and very souls are so intermingled that neither one could ever make a decision that the other would not totally agree with. That is how far the purity and devotion of their feeling, one for the other, go. There could never be any question of blame in anything that they do together.

Day 24. 6 days to go. Dec. 28. 2009 is "S" Day.

 

[Eleftheria]

I believe that both Angel and Buffy had made some very hard choices but ultimately these choices proved how noble they were,both of them, and that they are true Champions.

I know some people refer to IWRY as "mind rape" and I am not gonna accept that term ever. Angel did sth for Buffy...the ultimate sacrifice and that shows exactly how much he loved her.Maybe Buffy died two years later but it was inevitable. Buffy would never sacrifice Dawn. Angel sacrificed the only(? questionmark is used cause I hope someday Joss will give us what we want 🙂 ) chance of happiness with Buffy because he saw that as a human he was unable to protect her.Even then he was thinking about her safety. He is always thinking about her safety despite the fact that most of the times she is kicking ass as she is the Slayer.

And in becoming pt2... I understand what Kean says here. You are right about most people blaming Angel for making decisions for Buffy but I really do not think that is the case. In becoming pt2 Buffy made the hardest choice of her life, as Princess b said very well.

It was the world or Angel... she is the Slayer so she knows that the last thing humans want is to be sucked in hell and suffer for all eternity. It is her duty to protect people and she proved she is able to make heroic choices even when times are very hard. I am certain Angel understood the necessity of that choice. I am sure that he would kill himself if Buffy didn't have the strength to do it...in order to save the world. But Buffy is a hero. And I also disagree with people calling their relationship a teenage romance...a normal, immature teenager wouldn't find the strength to kill Angel, and then in season 3 sacrifice her own blood just to save his life.

In conclusion I believe their love is an epic one and they both showed their true character by their desicions. They are noble, heroic and most of all soulmates.They would do anything for each other but simultaneously they have the strength to be champions and do what they need to.

 

[Flannen]

I've also often thought Angel is unfairly blamed for pretty much everything! 😛 No, in all seriousness, I have found that he is unfairly blamed and slated for the decisions he makes/made which would more than likely be treated differently had another character, (Buffy and Spike spring to my mind), made them instead.

I started a thread a little while ago about whether Angel is put on a pedestal and if that is why so many fans berate him because he does seem to get slated.

As far as I'm concerned, Angel made the decisions he did because they had to be done. I think that later on in her life, Buffy realised this (she obviously only knows about things like his leaving) and even began to make those decisions herself. Buffy and Angel are two peas in a pod; they both live a life which requires them to have to make decisions for other people for the greater good, because it is the mission that matters. But more often that not, when Buffy makes these decisions for every one else, it's because she's the leader and everyone else should fall in line and do as she says, no questions asked but its not the same for Angel.

I have to disagree with everyone who says that the two people's decisions are entirely different, in essence they are not and it just shows pretty much what Kean says in the OP; they're treated differently, but why?

PB, you said that killing Angel was Buffy's hardest decision of her life, I don't disagree with you, but then you don't give Angel the credit he deserves in the same way. I think leaving Sunnydale and IWRY were probably some of the hardest decisions Angel ever had to make.

Arguing about why Angel actually left Sunnydale at the end of Season 3 is like arguing why Spike didn't try to find Buffy after he materialized in Angel's office in LA. Angel was moving to a new (his own) series, and so was Spike. Anything beyond that was just the writers trying to come up with the least lame of lame excuses for Joss' arbitrary decision.

I don't think it's really that similar. Angel had to leave, whether he was getting his own show or not. By season three, until these two characters had the chance to be their own people and be apart, they would never have grown and matured as a couple either. I don't think it was as 'arbitrary' a decision in this instance.

Hmm, I'm tired and rambly so I'm gonna stop now, lol. I don't think this post makes much sense but never mind! 😛

 

[Kana]

I've also often thought Angel is unfairly blamed for pretty much everything! 😛 No, in all seriousness, I have found that he is unfairly blamed and slated for the decisions he makes/made which would more than likely be treated differently had another character, (Buffy and Spike spring to my mind), made them instead.

In general I agree, however I still have to look at each instance and analyse it from both sides.

I started a thread a little while ago about whether Angel is put on a pedestal and if that is why so many fans berate him because he does seem to get slated.

It's weird. Although Angel is the lead in his own series, it almost feels as though he's the underdog. Maybe that's part of why I like him.

As far as I'm concerned, Angel made the decisions he did because they had to be done. I think that later on in her life, Buffy realised this (she obviously only knows about things like his leaving) and even began to make those decisions herself.

I certainly think Buffy understood Angel's actions. This is the best defence of his actions. When he broke up with her, he agreed in the long run it would be right. She understood his decision in IWRY, she was just upset. She wasn't entirely happy about his behaviour in Pangs but she seemed to calm down when she realised Angel was fighting to protect her. All this said Angel needed to realise that he shouldn't always have to make such decisions alone without consulting her. He certainly shouldn't have tried to face the Mohra demon by himself. Good thing our little Slayer got their in time. You cannot fault Angel for his intentions though. He's trying to protect the woman he loves. To give him a tirade of scorn for that seems almost a little heartless.

Buffy and Angel are two peas in a pod; they both live a life which requires them to have to make decisions for other people for the greater good, because it is the mission that matters.

There is a difference between saving someones life and doing something that affects them without their consent. I wouldn't blame Angel for saving us from the Lubber demons but we can for example scrutinize his decision to rape the memories of his friends to give Connor that perfect life. In romantic relationships it also has different implications. Yes you can help those whom you love but you can for example let people know what your up to instead of stalking them behind their backs. I love Angel but I have to look at it without my goggles on.

But more often that not, when Buffy makes these decisions for every one else, it's because she's the leader and everyone else should fall in line and do as she says, no questions asked but its not the same for Angel.

It depends on what decisions are being made. I tried to advance the debate by encouraging specific examples. I thought we were talking about decisions made in their relationship that greatly affected the other. My main issue was Angel not consulting with Buffy in certain occasions. This is something he does, not just with Buffy but with others. Buffy has done many wrong things, but I'm struggling to think of decisions she's made that are analogous. If we simply talking about Angel's not perfect and neither is Buffy, that's a slightly different convo.

I have to disagree with everyone who says that the two people's decisions are entirely different, in essence they are not and it just shows pretty much what Kean says in the OP; they're treated differently, but why?

As I say I treat situations differently not characters. I have to look at the circumstance of the decision. I do agree however that the flak some characters get is unneccesary but it doesn't mean I wont scrutinize the decision myself and look at the positive and the negative.

PB, you said that killing Angel was Buffy's hardest decision of her life, I don't disagree with you, but then you don't give Angel the credit he deserves in the same way. I think leaving Sunnydale and IWRY were probably some of the hardest decisions Angel ever had to make.

There is no doubting the sacrifice and how difficult it was for him. Giving up Connor no doubt was difficult as well. We can still criticize them though but fairly looking at the situations as they present themselves. We can also look at why Buffy took so long to take care of Angelus. It's harsh but we can still look at it.

I don't think it's really that similar. Angel had to leave, whether he was getting his own show or not. By season three, until these two characters had the chance to be their own people and be apart, they would never have grown and matured as a couple either. I don't think it was as 'arbitrary' a decision in this instance.

I agree, I don't really like outside of the show arguments unless it's absolutely necessary.

Hmm, I'm tired and rambly so I'm gonna stop now, lol. I don't think this post makes much sense but never mind! 😛

Made perfect sense. It was my favourite, so that's why I picked on it. lol.

 

[white avenger]

I've also often thought Angel is unfairly blamed for pretty much everything! 😛 No, in all seriousness, I have found that he is unfairly blamed and slated for the decisions he makes/made which would more than likely be treated differently had another character, (Buffy and Spike spring to my mind), made them instead.

hey're treated differently, but why?

PB, you said that killing Angel was Buffy's hardest decision of her life, I don't disagree with you, but then you don't give Angel the credit he deserves in the same way. I think leaving Sunnydale and IWRY were probably some of the hardest decisions Angel ever had to make.


By season three, until these two characters had the chance to be their own people and be apart, they would never have grown and matured as a couple either.

The actions of Willow in "Tabula Rasa" come more to mind than anything that either Buffy or Spike ever did, but I can, indeed, see a double standard there.

And I can certainly agree that both Buffy and Angel had to grow and mature, something that they would never have been able to do if they had stayed together.

The adolescent romance between high school Buffy and first-time-in-love-with-anyone-other-than-himself Angel had run its course. It's over. Anything that they might share together in the future will have to be a mature relationship established and shared by two adults. But it will be something entirely new, not a continuation of what they shared in the past.

 

[Flannen]

The adolescent romance between high school Buffy and first-time-in-love-with-anyone-other-than-himself Angel had run its course. It's over. Anything that they might share together in the future will have to be a mature relationship established and shared by two adults. But it will be something entirely new, not a continuation of what they shared in the past.

I absolutely agree here. I sometimes wonder if that's what everyone thinks every Bangel fan is expecting to happen; that they'll just go back to how they were season 2/3? Is it? lol

I'm excited for what their relationship could be now. They are both so far from the people they were before. I do honestly think they could be amazing together now. You can't be in love with someone, or let someone else love you, until you love yourself a little bit. And I think both of them struggled with that first time round, which is why they felt the need to make the decisions for each other that they did. But I think they're past that now. They're both comfortable enough with themselves, and selfless enough to make it work.

Kana, I'll come back to your post later. I need to wait for my brain to be less mushy 😉

 

[white avenger]

I absolutely agree here. I sometimes wonder if that's what everyone thinks every Bangel fan is expecting to happen; that they'll just go back to how they were season 2/3? Is it? lol

Regardless of which ship I support, either in the past, now or later, I have never denied that Buffy and Angel MIGHT have a future together, just that what they had in Sunnydale is over and done with.

(Now we have to convince Miss K of that fact)

 

[Flannen]

lol, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's completely over and done with. It's still there because they still love each other, which has to come from that time together in Sunnydale originally, so it's not done and dusted (excuse the pun) by any means. But it can only remain as the foundation of what it is to come between them in the future.

I'm finding it hard to articulate what I mean, I hope you can get the gist...

 

[Kean]

Regardless of which ship I support, either in the past, now or later, I have never denied that Buffy and Angel MIGHT have a future together, just that what they had in Sunnydale is over and done with.

(Now we have to convince Miss K of that fact)

I've never contested that what they had in Sunnydale is over. Of course it is over, Hell, Sunnydale itself is over. Pretty much every relationship that the scoobies had has moved long past its Sunnydale origins. Buffy and Angel can only move on to a new stage in their relationship. I'd never want them to go back.

Is that what non-Bangel's think? That we are just waiting for them pick up where they left off with chaste kisses in some grave yard? Cuz I cannot stress how much that is not the case.

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

lol, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's completely over and done with. It's still there because they still love each other, which has to come from that time together in Sunnydale originally, so it's not done and dusted (excuse the pun) by any means. But it can only remain as the foundation of what it is to come between them in the future.

I'm finding it hard to articulate what I mean, I hope you can get the gist...

Exactly. It's the bed rock of their relationship, it's their history but it isn't their future.