The Original Whole Grudge On Spike.......

[Misty]

Now in the first thread "Whole Grudge On Spike..." there were some problems in it and it got closed. Now I know there's a Part 2 but I still would like to say here that in the first thread I meant to say that Buffy is responsible for having sex with Spike way before AR because I have a hard time believing that Buffy is responsible for AR, because I recently watching Seeing Red and the scene is awful! Now this isn't an argument thread, but do you think Spike had an excuse and do you forgive him for this???

And do you still like Spuffy after this?

 

[white avenger]

Ultimately, whatever my opinion or anyone else's is doesn't matter. BUFFY forgave him, and she was the offended party. Or, if you want to see it in another way, she realized that the man who had regained his soul for her was no more the man who tried to rape her as Angel was the man who murdered Jenny Calendar, tortured Giles, and tried to destroy the world. She summed it up perfectly when she told Wood that he was "looking for revenge on a man who doesn't exist anymore."

Spike's actions in "Seeing Red" are in no way excusable, but the scene WAS necessary to the development of his character, because it was the catalyst that ultimately led to his regaining his soul.

 

[dan k]

After watching "Seeing Red" again tonight i tend to agree with the people who believed Spike didn't realize exactly what he'd done until Buffy kicked him away. That's not condoning what he did but i think he thought Buffy would eventually agree to having sex like she had done before and vice versa.

He ultimately realized how terrible his behaviour had been and sought off to make amends. I truly believe he wasn't thinking about rape when he tried to force himself on Buffy. That might not make any sense but its what i believe.

When he got his soul back he was able to understand Buffy better. Consequently he found a way into Buffy's heart. I myself don't see any reason to have a grudge on Spike. What he did was wrong but that wasn't the same man in season 7.

He made a mistake by you have to consider what had gone on in his relationship with Buffy before "Seeing Red".

 

[Willow-Tree]

There's a thread going on right now for this (seemingly timeless) debate:

No attempted rape? - Buffy-Boards

 

[Kelsey]

Hah, does anyone ever get tired of this conversation? It feels like it's been argued every which way to Sunday, and still nobody agrees.

I hate Seeing Red. I haven't watched it since, and don't plan to. But before somebody jumps on me for that, let me say: I do NOT pretend it doesn't exist. That would be an insult to Buffy and women everywhere who have actually experienced this situation. To somehow blame the victim is NEVER right, no matter if it's Buffy, a girl who got too drunk at a party, some poor woman who walked down the wrong street at night or any other scenario.

I agree with Dan K, though, with the belief that Spike didn't know what he was doing, at least not fully. The expression of horror on his face when she finally kicks him off tells me he just wasn't in his right mind, or to borrow a phrase from a meta I read, that "the lights were on but nobody was home." That does not excuse him; nothing could. Nor does it defend his character; any man who doesn't realize that the girl he loves isn't playing a role, but is afraid and in pain is one seriously messed up individual.

I think, up until that point, Spike didn't really know how evil he still was. In his mind, he'd molded himself to become something that Buffy wanted, or at least something she craved on some level. He even said, "I'm not good, but I do okay." The fact that he claims he "would never" right after he truly tried to rape her (and denies it with that look on his face) shows his disconnect there. He didn't realize until that moment what he was truly capable of doing. He sees in himself the absolute worst thing he could see, worse than any of the past crimes he thought didn't matter because he wasn't killing anymore. He always defined himself by love, and the fact that he could hurt, violate the woman he loved pushed him over the edge. It made him want to change, at least in my view. I know I might get bombarded with "He just wanted Buffy back" (a very Angel sentiment, if I may) but I don't believe it.

As for Spuffy, like WA said, Buffy forgave him. She realized that, although the demon was still there, so was a new, completely different part of Spike. How she reconciles the two, I don't know. I have trouble doing it and he's not even real.

 

[Taake]

Well I would say that I forgave his character for it, as Buffy obviously did, BUT forgiving does NOT mean forgetting.
I could never look quite the same at him and I don't think she could either. the base of trust is gone and without the impending threat of "oh the First is gonna hack us all to bits and all my friends are turning on me" I do think she would have had a much harder time letting him into her life again.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't have a problem with Spike. I never had a problem with Spike. I used to love Spike. Maybe I would like Spuffy if they started their "relathionship" differently. But they started it in a such selfish and wrong way, and that image will never go out of my head. Sure, Spike did some wrong things, like in Seeing Red, and so did Buffy. But I can't, and don't wanna to use an excuse for them. Because everything that happens, we wanted it to happen, with some part of our brain or heart, we did. I'm not saying Buffy wanted to be raped, God noooo, but that's what Spike needed to make things better, to go out and get a soul. That was his trigger.

 

[TheVoid68]

I gave him a clean break after his soul-getting. I kinda conciously gave everyone a clean slate after S6 so that I wouldn't have to hate them all in S7 (hence my lack of grudge against Willow). I don't blame ensouled Spike for the AR, I just think that ensouled Spike is a whiny jerk.