The Potentials/Faith vs. Buffy
- Thread starter Joshua
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JCoatsworth
UP THE IRONS!
First of all, they didn't know that there was a bomb in the tunnels. I think if they had known, they would have changed their minds, don't you?
They also were convinced that Buffy was an unqualified leader, so they chose to follow Faith. And I guess, in their eyes, by blindly following Faith's rather hurried plan they were doing the exact opposite of following Buffy. They kind of had to do it to not look like complete idiots. They cast out their old leader, so they had to support their new leader all the more. That's the way I see it. And personally, I think they were being total morons, following an ill-conceived plan to prove a point.
They also were convinced that Buffy was an unqualified leader, so they chose to follow Faith. And I guess, in their eyes, by blindly following Faith's rather hurried plan they were doing the exact opposite of following Buffy. They kind of had to do it to not look like complete idiots. They cast out their old leader, so they had to support their new leader all the more. That's the way I see it. And personally, I think they were being total morons, following an ill-conceived plan to prove a point.
BuffyElevated
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Gum Gnome33
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BuffyElevated
Scooby
Buffy's plans had led to several of the Potentials being killed right in front of their eyes. Even though this wasn't Buffy's fault, they blamed her for the things that went wrong and began to question her ability to lead. Faith seemed like the cooler, tougher one to them and they felt they could trust her, so they did. I think if any of them knew there would be a bomb in the tunnels, none of them would have dared enter.
white avenger
white avenger
Something else that has to be considered is the fact that, before the mutiny, the Potentials almost certainly believed that Faith would be much less demanding of them, pretty much the way that Buffy had been before she led them into the vineyard, as in, she would go out and do all of the fighting and risk taking while leaving them, safe and secure. By the time that they realized that under Faith's leadership, just as with Buffy, the time for sitting at home was really past, and they were going to have to do their fair there wasn't much that they could do but obey orders.
Tuppence
Angel of Music
It always frustrated me the whole "out you go Buffy" scene. I mean I got why the Potentials might blame her; they're new to the whole thing and they're scared to death and they don't realise that there is no blame in these situations, that nothing is for certain and that there will always be casualties. It still annoyed me, but I got it.
What I hated was when her nearest and dearest seemed to side with the Potentials too and think Faith would be a better leader. They of all people should have known that when in an entirely new situation fighting something they have very little clue about, Buffy had done the best she could, and that she had never failed them in the previous seven years. She always put them and the world before herself; she'd sacrificed herself twice, killed Angel, gave up her Prom to ensure they all had one (though admittedly she still got prom time in the end)' and numerous other things that I know happened but can't recall specifics right now. So where was their loyalty? Especially Dawn. This was a sister that literally gave everything for her. Even if they thought Buffy had started making bad decisions, Faith didn't have the best history in decision making AT ALL, so why suddenly make the leap and illogical decision that Faith would be better. Better the devil you know and all?
Faith, however, in this scene struck me as someone who found herself the focus of attention rather reluctantly but opted to go with the flow rather than fight it.
What I hated was when her nearest and dearest seemed to side with the Potentials too and think Faith would be a better leader. They of all people should have known that when in an entirely new situation fighting something they have very little clue about, Buffy had done the best she could, and that she had never failed them in the previous seven years. She always put them and the world before herself; she'd sacrificed herself twice, killed Angel, gave up her Prom to ensure they all had one (though admittedly she still got prom time in the end)' and numerous other things that I know happened but can't recall specifics right now. So where was their loyalty? Especially Dawn. This was a sister that literally gave everything for her. Even if they thought Buffy had started making bad decisions, Faith didn't have the best history in decision making AT ALL, so why suddenly make the leap and illogical decision that Faith would be better. Better the devil you know and all?
Faith, however, in this scene struck me as someone who found herself the focus of attention rather reluctantly but opted to go with the flow rather than fight it.
SMG14Fan
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SlayerPrincess
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itssmiletime
Potential
Actually, there is blame in this situation. Yeah, sure, Caleb physically killed the potentials, yet they wouldn't have been killed if Buffy just actually researched them. What Buffy did was completely reckless and unforgivable. She led two girls who was her responsibility to their deaths. The fact that she didn't even know what Caleb looked like, what he was capable of is just... gob smacking. In Surprise, imagine if she brought the whole scooby gang to meet the judge. But it was okay then, as it was just her and Angel, and the whole entire purpose was to just see whether or not the judge was activated, if dru and spike were still alive, etc.
Also... the whole 'she died twice, gave up everything' doesn't fly... at all. All of those things are great and merit respect, but that does not translate into great leadership skills or ability to conjure up effective tactics. Whenever people mention 'loyalty' it always annoys me, because I always get the impression that people think that Buffy is somewhat entitled to absolutely everything she wants to do. Dawn isn't in Buffy's debt or anything. Especially, when siding with Buffy could mean more people were going to die.
Yes, people are going to die. That's a fact in war. Well, let's keep that number down to a very small minimum, and the whole 'people are going to die' is a horrible, nihilistic excuse. I hated Spike in Touched when he said that.
Faith being a leader, does show the limits of the potential's thinking, that in order to fight a war, there needs to be a singular leader who is the physically strongest. I think Giles would make a brilliant leader, with his watcher instincts. Xander, Willow are great at researching, knowledge, planning, brainstorming, etc. I would have opted for a joint leadership, or perhaps a non- Slayer at the helm.
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SlayerOfVampyrs
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NeonNightLight
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Robb Stark
King in the North
This is pretty much the perfect answer to the question of this thread.
Buffy was beyond stupid in how she handled the initial attack on Caleb. Tactically it is just mind-boggling to think that she could even have acted so dumb. There was a LOT she could have done better (I think there's even a thread about that exact topic kicking around), in a lot of different areas. She didn't think. She didn't plan. She didn't lead. She just marched straight into a death trap without even considering the options, and it cost people their lives. It sucks to say, but that's on Buffy. No one else.
Now, that being said, turning to Faith was idiotic too. Faith had grown up a lot by S7 and yes, she was a Slayer, but that doesn't make you a leader. The two aren't one and the same (I always roll my eyes a bit when that notion gets tossed around. That being "The Slayer" somehow makes you qualified to lead). In fact, Faith's entire arc in S3 pretty much reinforces that. Giles by S7 is kind of a mess too, but he's probably the most able to lead that group in Buffy's absence. Faith has zero leadership skills, Willow has proven over and over she can't react well to pressure situations. Spike would be a good choice but is far to close to Buffy to be objective. Xander doesn't show any real initiative to take the reigns, even though he probably could. Everyone rolls their eyes at Kennedy.
That's why I've always said kicking Buffy out was dumb, even if her plan was the height of dumb. What was the alternative? Who was capable of taking her place? As we saw, no one. It's a pretty cringe-worthy moment for the Potentials/Scoobies when they deride Buffy for her plan, and then elect Faith as their new commander who promptly leads them into a trap. Not that Buffy was exactly awesome herself, but it did make the Potentials look pretty stupid.
Gile's was the only person who had actually been trained to lead someone, Buffy never really led the scoobies, she did not have seven years of leading, she had seven years of working alone, and occasionally directing her friends on rare occasions. Also, season 1, 2 and most of 3, she was a follower, she obeyed (to some extent) Giles/Wesley. So realistically she had season 4/5/6 as a leader. She was the worst leader in season 4, her group literally fell apart, in season 5 she fell apart and she did nothing in season 6 due to her depression. So why should everyone follow Buffy? There's no clear reason that I can see? Whereas, Giles has led people, has made difficult decisions and is literally willing to do whatever it takes to save the world.
Buffy would not even kill ben to save the wolrd, which was very noble and all but could have led to the end of the world and uber suffering. She did kill angel, but only after he'd killed scores of people, and had to be killed to stop a portal sucking the world into hell... if it had been Jenny who had reverted to an immensely evil creature, does anyone doubt that Giles would have stabbed in the heart a lot sooner than buffy did angel, cos I don't.
Buffy would not even kill ben to save the wolrd, which was very noble and all but could have led to the end of the world and uber suffering. She did kill angel, but only after he'd killed scores of people, and had to be killed to stop a portal sucking the world into hell... if it had been Jenny who had reverted to an immensely evil creature, does anyone doubt that Giles would have stabbed in the heart a lot sooner than buffy did angel, cos I don't.
I completely agree, Giles should have been the one training the girls. He had way more experience then Buffy and like you said was trained to do so. Makes me think of sports, look at the people going to the Olympics, a lot of athlete don't have trainers that are better then them at the sports, they have trainers that are efficient and know how to train. In this case the perfect example would have been Giles, Buffy is an athlete, not a leader. Of course she should have had a say in the decision, but Giles was more suited for the job.
Xin Rong
brilliant analogy!Wwish I'd have thought of it :)
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
From the time Buffy led the first disastrous raid until she called for the second, what had she done to ensure it would not end up as bad or worse?
Nothing.
It was Giles who suggested in "Empty Places" 7ABB19 that Caleb could not have sprung up in Sunnydale without having left traces of his past elsewhere. He sends Spike and Andrew on a recon mission and Buffy attempts to get the Potentials to go on another raid before they come back with any answers. They rightly refuse.
Faith is no better as a leader, but at least she knows it and doesn't assume she knows any better. She waits until Andrew explains that they are looking for a weapon. This is enough of a legitimate target that she then mobilizes the potentials. The trap that she runs into is unexpectedly modern - a bomb on a timer. She gets the potentials to get out as soon as she sees it. They have a better chance of surviving in this raid because they know a bit more about what they are up against and they all survive with recoverable injuries.
Nothing.
It was Giles who suggested in "Empty Places" 7ABB19 that Caleb could not have sprung up in Sunnydale without having left traces of his past elsewhere. He sends Spike and Andrew on a recon mission and Buffy attempts to get the Potentials to go on another raid before they come back with any answers. They rightly refuse.
Faith is no better as a leader, but at least she knows it and doesn't assume she knows any better. She waits until Andrew explains that they are looking for a weapon. This is enough of a legitimate target that she then mobilizes the potentials. The trap that she runs into is unexpectedly modern - a bomb on a timer. She gets the potentials to get out as soon as she sees it. They have a better chance of surviving in this raid because they know a bit more about what they are up against and they all survive with recoverable injuries.
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itssmiletime
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Robb Stark
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white avenger
white avenger
To have Giles step in and take command in Season 7 would have flown in the face of what he had been drilling into Buffy's head for the previous several seasons, and why he left in the middle of Season 6. Buffy was the leader. She shouldn't depend on anyone else, Giles included, to make the difficult decisions, either in her life, or in her Slaying. Buffy was SUPPOSED to be the one in charge, That's why she broke away from the Council, and why Giles encouraged and supported her afterwards. Guarding the hellmouth was Buffy's responsibility, and that included being the one in charge, That was the whole premise of the show, and why her name is part of the series title.
Everyone wants to condemn Buffy for her "plan" to return a second time to the vineyard, but the fact is, no one even knows specifically what that plan would have involved. We never knew, because no one bothered to hear her out, even when she said that she was willing to discuss strategy. What we DO know is that, as someone else pointed out, she was spot on. What Caleb was guarding WAS at the vineyard, and, ultimately, it was worth the sacrifice required to attain it.
Ironically, in order to establish her leadership of the Potentials, Faith did exactly what Buffy should have done in the first place. She pointed out that she (Faith) was the one giving the orders, and that those objecting should "back the hell off and let her do her job," And that's why the Potentials were willing to follow Faith into that tunnel. She established from the first that she was the one in charge, the one giving the orders, and their jobs were to follow her in and watch her back. Basically, Faith gave the classic "My way or the highway," speech, and the Potentials believed her. Just that simple.
Everyone wants to condemn Buffy for her "plan" to return a second time to the vineyard, but the fact is, no one even knows specifically what that plan would have involved. We never knew, because no one bothered to hear her out, even when she said that she was willing to discuss strategy. What we DO know is that, as someone else pointed out, she was spot on. What Caleb was guarding WAS at the vineyard, and, ultimately, it was worth the sacrifice required to attain it.
Ironically, in order to establish her leadership of the Potentials, Faith did exactly what Buffy should have done in the first place. She pointed out that she (Faith) was the one giving the orders, and that those objecting should "back the hell off and let her do her job," And that's why the Potentials were willing to follow Faith into that tunnel. She established from the first that she was the one in charge, the one giving the orders, and their jobs were to follow her in and watch her back. Basically, Faith gave the classic "My way or the highway," speech, and the Potentials believed her. Just that simple.
You brought great points, and I actually completely agree. The only reason I wanted Giles to be more involved is that he has no point in s7 if they aren't even going to use his skills. It's Buffy's job to guard the hellmouth and lead those girls, but she's not even using everyone to their full abilities, and that includes Giles, Willow (up until Chosen), Xander, Anya and hell even Dawn. In this case, using Giles wasn't backtracking, Buffy could still make decisions, but he knew best how to train a slayer, Buffy should have used that. What makes the serie so great is that it's about Buffy, but also about her circle of friends. They made it clear that they are involved in her success as the slayer. I just wish they would have shown that a bit more in s7. That being said I still love the season. I'm just nitpicking.
Obviously it wasn't considering that no sacrifice was needed at all to get the scythe, because as made evident by what actually happened, Buffy could have gotten it herself without the use of the potentials as canon fodder
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itssmiletime
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white avenger
white avenger
You're confusing the term "worth the sacrifice" with "required a sacrifice." Maybe Buffy could have gone in alone and gotten the Scythe the first time, but we'll never know for sure. Or just as likely, the knowledge of how Caleb fought, gained from that first encounter, was essential to the success of Buffy's second assault on the vineyard. In that second encounter, Buffy was able to use her superior Caleb's greater strength. Without the knowledge gained from their first meeting, her chances of success the second time would have been much less.
itssmiletime
Potential
To me, Giles leaving Buffy in season 6, to make the difficult decisions in her life was a way to establish her independence. Buffy could make her own decisions, but completely sucked at making the decisions for others. Her leadership was very stupid and an endless use of band-aid solutions such as speeches and incredibly cliche tough love routine. She sucked at the start, and continued to suck. The point I've been trying to make is that Giles, would have been a more coherent and effective leader, even if that means brushing aside Buffy. Xander would have been better.
About Empty Places / Scythe: Buffy said that 'this isn't a democracy' and 'you need someone to lead you' 'but this is the plan'. Buffy was abusing her power. Anything that the potentials said, would have probably been brushed aside. Students suggestions are hardly taken seriously by headmasters and principals. In armies, solider's ideas are probably not even heard. In the workforces, its all about ranks. The more power you have, the more your ideas are taken seriously. If any of the potentials run away, they die. If they stay, they have to do everything Buffy tells them to do. Buffy knows that, and abuses it. Thank god that Anya, Giles, Willow and Xander and Faith said something, because otherwise, there would have been a repeat.
Buffy simply finding the Scythe isn't an 'the ends justify the means' scenario. Honestly, I don't think the Toys R Us axe is worth the lives of two potentials, let alone Xander's eye. Why not blow up the vineyard? Really, what saved the day in Chosen, was the amulet. The Scythe is irrelevant. They could have blown a hole in the hellmouth, and the nest of ubervamps die.
Buffy sent the potentials to a place in Dirty Girls without any research of the place. When Faith and Buffy are trying to find where Caleb resides, they don't even think of going into said Vineyard, and having a look around.
Bringing potentials mean that Buffy has to kind of, you know, protect them. There is absolutely no way a potential can defeat them based on strength. So what, Buffy would just look around, whilst Caleb was picking off the potentials one by one? Keep in mind that Caleb's goal is to kill as many potentials as possible.
And I really have trouble with the word 'sacrifice'. Nothing good came out of their deaths. Nothing that could have been figured out without them dying.
Faith's plan had at least research as well. If you ask me, she shouldn't have been leader because she didn't want to. She showed much more care and personal affection for the potentials, than Buffy ever did.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
Maybe if Buffy had kept the rocket launcher she was using to try to kill Principal Wood in "Him", things would have gone better.
As for the Seal of Danzalthar, get a gasoline truck (everyone had left town by this point, even in the hospital, so no one would have missed it), pump it into the cavern and light it.
If the army had bugged out of the military base that Xander got into to get the rocket launcher used against the Judge in "Innocence", a whole set of weaponry would have been just lying around unused.
The town had evacuated. It was empty, just like the hospital when Anya and Andrew pillaged it. All items in the town were at their disposal. They used none of it. When the amateur thinks tactics, the professional tactician thinks logistics.
As for the Seal of Danzalthar, get a gasoline truck (everyone had left town by this point, even in the hospital, so no one would have missed it), pump it into the cavern and light it.
If the army had bugged out of the military base that Xander got into to get the rocket launcher used against the Judge in "Innocence", a whole set of weaponry would have been just lying around unused.
The town had evacuated. It was empty, just like the hospital when Anya and Andrew pillaged it. All items in the town were at their disposal. They used none of it. When the amateur thinks tactics, the professional tactician thinks logistics.
white avenger
white avenger
Absolutely right. here had to be literally tons of material just laying around for the taking that would have greatly aided Buffy and her little army, such as flammable liquids and explosives, and they had inexperienced girls, Slayer powers or not, going down into that hole with nothing more than pointed sticks. Granted, stakes have their place in slaying vampires, but are next to useless, once the actual fighting gets started, against an overwhelming force of ubervamps.
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itssmiletime
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If somethingis worth the sacrifice, then its worth does seem to be dependant on whether or not that sacrifice is required. My TV might be worth the sacrifice of £300, but as I already own it I am not going to throw the amount of money it's worth out the window... just as the scyhe may have been worth sacrifice of additional potentials lives, but it doesn't mean that buffy needs to make that sacrifice.
Also... it seems that you have illustrated how there was no need for the potentials to go with her a second time, if she already knew about his strength and how she could overcome it, then what good would taking the potentials with her do? Surely, they would just get in the way... how would she have gotten past him with lots of potentials running around getting killed, it's not as if she could just leave them to be slaughtered, or do you think that was her plan, to literally sacrifice them as a distraction whilst she looked around for something that may or may not have been there?
white avenger
white avenger
The problem is, "We're going back in," doesn't give us any idea just exactly what Buffy's plan for the second assault really was, so it's hard to judge just what she was willing to risk the second time. Certainly, it could have been a full frontal assault, but it could just as well have been a group of Potentials led by Giles or Wood, since Xander probably wouldn't have been up to the task at that time, creating a diversion while she, Spike, and Faith took Caleb on in a coordinated attack, keeping him off balance, never giving him the chance to use his superior strength against any one of them, because whenever he tried, the other two would be attacking from his back and side.
All that we know for sure about Buffy's plan for a second assault is that she believed that it was necessary, and that she was willing to discuss and refine the final strategy. Buffy's chief mistake was that she didn't wait until Spike returned, then taken him, Willow, Giles, and Faith into the kitchen, locked the doors, and worked up a workable plan before springing it on the entire group. Almost as bad was her timing. Xander had just returned from the hospital, probably still groggy from pain medication, and probably not thinking completely straight at the moment (at least his reaction there doesn't seem to support his prior, speech in total support of Buffy and her plans) Poor preparation and bad timing don't necessary indicate that Buffy's ultimate plan was flawed. Te truth is,we will never know just what that plan was, and wihout that knowledge, I find it hard to pass judgement.
I've said this before, and my opinion hasn't changed. What Buffy proposed wasn't a bit different from what she had been doing all season except for one single factor. She had been fighting alone, or with Spike as back up, taking all the risk, suffering all the injuries, while the Potentials sat safely out of harm's way, exercising in the back yard and listening to lectures in the basement. Now, they had had their first taste of combat, of the personal risk involved. of the very real possibility that some of them would die, and they didn't want any more of it. Given their situation, that wasn't really a viable option.Sure, they had encountered Caleb at the vineyard, but that didn't mean that he was for some reason permanently located there. He could just as easily been in that tunnel that Faith led them into, or in that alley where Kennedy was the bait to catch a Bringer. What was different? Pretty much just what I have already said.
The plan to catch a Bringer, and the plan to go into the tunnels, both had two things, and to things only, that Buffy's plan didn't. Before each, the group sat down and discussed strategy, which is exactly what Buffy offered to do before returning to the vineyard a second time, and Faith had the support of Giles and the other experienced people in the group, something that Buffy should have been sure that she had before announcing her intentions in general.
In the end, Buffy's thinking was right. The bad guys were hanging out where the power was. Returning to the vineyard resulted in obtaining the Scythe, which, ultimately, in addition to the amulet that Angel supplied, were instrumental in stopping the First Evil's plans.
Jeff86
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