The Potentials/Faith vs. Buffy

[Xin Rong]

The problem is, "We're going back in," doesn't give us any idea just exactly what Buffy's plan for the second assault really was, so it's hard to judge just what she was willing to risk the second time. Certainly, it could have been a full frontal assault, but it could just as well have been a group of Potentials led by Giles or Wood, since Xander probably wouldn't have been up to the task at that time, creating a diversion while she, Spike, and Faith took Caleb on in a coordinated attack, keeping him off balance, never giving him the chance to use his superior strength against any one of them, because whenever he tried, the other two would be attacking from his back and side.

All that we know for sure about Buffy's plan for a second assault is that she believed that it was necessary, and that she was willing to discuss and refine the final strategy. Buffy's chief mistake was that she didn't wait until Spike returned, then taken him, Willow, Giles, and Faith into the kitchen, locked the doors, and worked up a workable plan before springing it on the entire group. Almost as bad was her timing. Xander had just returned from the hospital, probably still groggy from pain medication, and probably not thinking completely straight at the moment (at least his reaction there doesn't seem to support his prior, speech in total support of Buffy and her plans) Poor preparation and bad timing don't necessary indicate that Buffy's ultimate plan was flawed. Te truth is,we will never know just what that plan was, and wihout that knowledge, I find it hard to pass judgement.

I've said this before, and my opinion hasn't changed. What Buffy proposed wasn't a bit different from what she had been doing all season except for one single factor. She had been fighting alone, or with Spike as back up, taking all the risk, suffering all the injuries, while the Potentials sat safely out of harm's way, exercising in the back yard and listening to lectures in the basement. Now, they had had their first taste of combat, of the personal risk involved. of the very real possibility that some of them would die, and they didn't want any more of it. Given their situation, that wasn't really a viable option.Sure, they had encountered Caleb at the vineyard, but that didn't mean that he was for some reason permanently located there. He could just as easily been in that tunnel that Faith led them into, or in that alley where Kennedy was the bait to catch a Bringer. What was different? Pretty much just what I have already said.

The plan to catch a Bringer, and the plan to go into the tunnels, both had two things, and to things only, that Buffy's plan didn't. Before each, the group sat down and discussed strategy, which is exactly what Buffy offered to do before returning to the vineyard a second time, and Faith had the support of Giles and the other experienced people in the group, something that Buffy should have been sure that she had before announcing her intentions in general.

In the end, Buffy's thinking was right. The bad guys were hanging out where the power was. Returning to the vineyard resulted in obtaining the Scythe, which, ultimately, in addition to the amulet that Angel supplied, were instrumental in stopping the First Evil's plans.

I see your points and find it hard to entirely disagree, as this is an area for speculation. However as you state Buffy's 'Poor preparation and bad timing don't necessary indicate that Buffy's ultimate plan was flawed' to me are strong indications that her ultimate plan was likely to be flawed. Poor preparation and bad timing are two of the worst things you can have when constructing a plan, if buffy could not even do these things when announcing that she has a plan, then I have little hope in her implementation and construction of that plan.

Also, yes the scythe did play an instrumental role, but the potentials did not need to die in order to acquire it. How many future slayers could have died in a trip to the vineyard, enough that they would not have been able to hold back the turok han long enough for the amulet to kick, quite possibly, but again this is speculation.

 

[white avenger]

'Poor preparation and bad timing"

Also, yes the scythe did play an instrumental role, but the potentials did not need to die in order to acquire it. How many future slayers could have died in a trip to the vineyard, enough that they would not have been able to hold back the turok han long enough for the amulet to kick, quite possibly, but again this is speculation.

"Poor preparation and bad timing" should have been "Poor PRESENTATION and bad timing," as in that discussion of tactics mentioned earlier. The preparation part was what the mutiny prevented.

And when I say that attaining the Scythe was worth the sacrifice, I don't necessarily mean that "X" number of girls had to line up before an alter and be offered up as a blood sacrifice to the gods of chance, or, in this case, probably the Powers That Be, in order to attain it. I mean that the risk of injury and death was justified in order to gain possession of a weapon of that power, especially if the alternative was letting it fall into Caleb's hands, assuming, of course, that the Bringers would have been able to free it from the stone. Unlike Thor's hammer, it COULD be used by whoever possessed it.

When Wes was commanding the troops in Pylea, Gunn pointed out that he was sending one group of fighters to almost certain death in order to create a diversion. Wes' strategy there applies to the fight at the vineyard perfectly. A few people risk injury and death so that the group as a whole can survive. In the case of Buffy and the Potentials, the group in question was the entire planet's population.

Buffy didn't willingly or carelessly send a bunch of girls in to die, and she didn't take one of her best friends in there to have his eye gouged out. Check her conversations before the fight. She was reluctant to take the Potentials into battle in the first place, until Wood suggested it, and she honestly believed that the situation at the vineyard wouldn't be as bad as it turned out to be. As far as she knew, and no amount of scouting or research beforehand could have possibly told her otherwise, Caleb was an ordinary, if evil, human working for the First Evil. Why should she believe otherwise? Other than their ability to navigate without eyes, the Bringers didn't have ant particular powers. Other than the ubervamps, of whom Caleb was definitely NOT, the First Evil hadn't actually used any non humans, with the exception of Spike, despite the fact that the area around the hellmouth was probably crawling with various vamps and demons who would have been more than happy to join its ranks.

Buffy and her troops were lured into an ambush. That sort of thing has happened to some of the finest military minds the world has ever known, who had a staffs of the world's finest advisers. There was no irresponsibility on Buffy's part, any more than there was on Faith's part for leading those same girls into the tunnel and being blown up. As Spike said, in war, there are casualties. It's inevitable, unavoidable, and, for the most part, unpredictable. Buffy knew that quite well, and had, up until that point, taken all of the risk herself. Quite possibly, with the assistance of Spike and Faith, she would have continued to do so if she hadn't taken Robin Wood's advice and taken the Potentials to the vineyard with her. That's something that most peoplget ore seem to either for ignore.

 

[Xin Rong]

"Poor preparation and bad timing" should have been "Poor PRESENTATION and bad timing," as in that discussion of tactics mentioned earlier. The preparation part was what the mutiny prevented.

And when I say that attaining the Scythe was worth the sacrifice, I don't necessarily mean that "X" number of girls had to line up before an alter and be offered up as a blood sacrifice to the gods of chance, or, in this case, probably the Powers That Be, in order to attain it. I mean that the risk of injury and death was justified in order to gain possession of a weapon of that power, especially if the alternative was letting it fall into Caleb's hands, assuming, of course, that the Bringers would have been able to free it from the stone. Unlike Thor's hammer, it COULD be used by whoever possessed it.

When Wes was commanding the troops in Pylea, Gunn pointed out that he was sending one group of fighters to almost certain death in order to create a diversion. Wes' strategy there applies to the fight at the vineyard perfectly. A few people risk injury and death so that the group as a whole can survive. In the case of Buffy and the Potentials, the group in question was the entire planet's population.

Buffy didn't willingly or carelessly send a bunch of girls in to die, and she didn't take one of her best friends in there to have his eye gouged out. Check her conversations before the fight. She was reluctant to take the Potentials into battle in the first place, until Wood suggested it, and she honestly believed that the situation at the vineyard wouldn't be as bad as it turned out to be. As far as she knew, and no amount of scouting or research beforehand could have possibly told her otherwise, Caleb was an ordinary, if evil, human working for the First Evil. Why should she believe otherwise? Other than their ability to navigate without eyes, the Bringers didn't have ant particular powers. Other than the ubervamps, of whom Caleb was definitely NOT, the First Evil hadn't actually used any non humans, with the exception of Spike, despite the fact that the area around the hellmouth was probably crawling with various vamps and demons who would have been more than happy to join its ranks.

Buffy and her troops were lured into an ambush. That sort of thing has happened to some of the finest military minds the world has ever known, who had a staffs of the world's finest advisers. There was no irresponsibility on Buffy's part, any more than there was on Faith's part for leading those same girls into the tunnel and being blown up. As Spike said, in war, there are casualties. It's inevitable, unavoidable, and, for the most part, unpredictable. Buffy knew that quite well, and had, up until that point, taken all of the risk herself. Quite possibly, with the assistance of Spike and Faith, she would have continued to do so if she hadn't taken Robin Wood's advice and taken the Potentials to the vineyard with her. That's something that most peoplget ore seem to either for ignore.

Whether you meant presentation of preparation, Buffy was still lacking in both when she proposed her lack of plan to everyone, and again does not bode well for her hypothetical plan of attack that she would have POSSIBLY devised before running into the 'hornets nest again'

She was not lured into an ambush, she knew it was an ambush and went anyway.

Also, as I have said before whether or not the sacrifice was worth the cost of the scythe is redudant by the fact that a sacrifice was not needed... risking resources that do not need to be risked is just stupid.

 

[thetopher]

The problem with Buffy is she cut herself off from everyone, she keeps them at a distance, didn't let her emotions show. That, in turn, looked like she didn't care about them. Hence the potentials turning on her, it wasn't all one way.
The other, more important, thing was Buffy was turning paranoid, what she said to Giles (about Spike being the only one watching her back) was patently ridiculous, Xander and Willow or Anya have done nothing to deseve that judgement. Her accusing Faith of trying to take over was also wrong (although given their history, a lot more understandable). This leads me to believe that Buffy was suffering from an error in judgement at the time, and I doubt her 'second' plan would've ended any better.

Remember, a big part of leadership is (unsurprisingly) getting other people to follow/trust you. If you fail at that your going to get a lot of people killed.

If Buffy had waited 24 hours for Spike and Andrew to return with more intel on Caleb, her theory would've had a little more basis in fact and Buffy could've brought others along with her, she would've had more to go on than wild (and somewhat crazy) supposition. The only reason she was right was that the First/Caleb (plus the writers) were entirely stupid. I mean, who sets a trap right where their greatest weakness happens to be residing? 🙄

 

[bentjazz]

Because they were way young and lacked adequate life experience and character discernment....