LadyLavinia
Scooby
I had just posted this article about the Powers to Be (aka PTB) on my blog:
http://ladylavinia.livejournal.com/81756.html
http://ladylavinia.livejournal.com/81756.html
The Powers to Be In WHEDONVERSE
- Thread starter LadyLavinia
- Start date
A
Allycat
Guest
Your article is interesting and I agree with it's conclusion in that the PTB aren't really all that relevant. But I'm afraid I don't agree with some of the other things you discuss.
There's basically two points where I disagree with you, and they both have to do with how you interpret the author of "Classic CJL: Spike and the Whedonverse".
I think in this context "calling upon" doesn't mean the PTB have created those warriors for the side of good, but rather said warriors are already in place, doing their thing and the PTB simply ask them to do specific tasks which will bring strategic benefits to the side of good that the individual warriors can't know about.
It was never suggested on either show that Slayers were created by the PTB. Nor that they were affiliated with them. They both have the same alignment (namely "good"), but that's where the connection ends.
It's definitely true that they have no sacred duty to any God, the PTB, or another Higher Being to perform the tasks of the Slayer. Again, I don't think it was ever suggested on either show that this sacred duty was to the PTB.
I think that the writer of the original article did not mean 'End of Days' as in the episode, but rather the as another term for apocalypse. Which could be the one from Bs7, but might also be the one from As4, or As5 or maybe Bs8. Who knows? Personally, I think that since Angel's story isn't done yet, this apocalypse is still to come.
Personally, I don't think they're all that relevant either. But surely, they did more than just guide Angel onto Buffy's path. They set him on his path again in LA, when they sent Doyle to him. They gave both Doyle and Cordelia many visions which saved many of lives. They also were directly responsible for putting Cordelia and Fred in his life. Finally, without Cordelia's final vision, Angel could have never taken the Circle of the Black Thorne out. Ofcourse, that might have been a mistake on their part, I guess we'll have to see.
Anyway, I think the PTB do have their use. They try to win the "war against evil" on a mind-bogglingly large multi-dimensional scale. So, it's logical that they're not very hands-on. They're more about manipulating events, putting pawns in the right place, and letting events unfold.
I think you could compare them to the government. You know that it's all very important that they make the right legislation about crime and stuff... but police-men are the real heroes.
But the Powers to Be had not been responsible for giving him his soul back in 1898. A group of Kalderash gypsies from Romania had restored his human soul in an act of revenge for his murder of one of their children. This soul would afflict him with a conscience and condemn him to an eternity of remorse for the crimes he has committed. After Angel lost his soul one hundred years later in 1998, it was Buffy's friend, Willow Rosenberg, who had restored his soul. Come to think of it, Willow performed this act again, five years later, on the behest of Angel's L.A. associates. If the PTB were not responsible for the restoration of his soul, who would have become their "Champion" if Angel had not killed that Kalderash gypsy child?
As for his role in the so-called "˜End of Days' "“ the only task he ended up performing was to hand Buffy the amulet that would help her defeat the First Evil's plans to upset the balance of good and evil. Come to think of it, the heads of Wolfram and Hart "“ the PTB's opposite number "“ had given Angel that amulet. And it was Spike who eventually wore the amulet in the BUFFY series finale, "Chosen" that led to the First Evil's defeat.
From what I have surmised, the Powers to Be only committed one major act in the so-called "war against evil" - they had used Whistler to guide Angel into making his aquaintance with Buffy, before she became a Slayer. They certainly were not responsible for the creation of the Slayer line. And they certainly were not responsible for Angel receiving his human soul. Come to think of it, they were not responsible for Spike retrieving his soul. Apparently, William the Bloody had made the choice to regain his soul. No one made it for him. Which only leads me to wonder just how relevant were the Powers to Be in the Whedonverse.
There's basically two points where I disagree with you, and they both have to do with how you interpret the author of "Classic CJL: Spike and the Whedonverse".
I think in this context "calling upon" doesn't mean the PTB have created those warriors for the side of good, but rather said warriors are already in place, doing their thing and the PTB simply ask them to do specific tasks which will bring strategic benefits to the side of good that the individual warriors can't know about.
It was never suggested on either show that Slayers were created by the PTB. Nor that they were affiliated with them. They both have the same alignment (namely "good"), but that's where the connection ends.
It's definitely true that they have no sacred duty to any God, the PTB, or another Higher Being to perform the tasks of the Slayer. Again, I don't think it was ever suggested on either show that this sacred duty was to the PTB.
I think that the writer of the original article did not mean 'End of Days' as in the episode, but rather the as another term for apocalypse. Which could be the one from Bs7, but might also be the one from As4, or As5 or maybe Bs8. Who knows? Personally, I think that since Angel's story isn't done yet, this apocalypse is still to come.
Personally, I don't think they're all that relevant either. But surely, they did more than just guide Angel onto Buffy's path. They set him on his path again in LA, when they sent Doyle to him. They gave both Doyle and Cordelia many visions which saved many of lives. They also were directly responsible for putting Cordelia and Fred in his life. Finally, without Cordelia's final vision, Angel could have never taken the Circle of the Black Thorne out. Ofcourse, that might have been a mistake on their part, I guess we'll have to see.
Anyway, I think the PTB do have their use. They try to win the "war against evil" on a mind-bogglingly large multi-dimensional scale. So, it's logical that they're not very hands-on. They're more about manipulating events, putting pawns in the right place, and letting events unfold.
I think you could compare them to the government. You know that it's all very important that they make the right legislation about crime and stuff... but police-men are the real heroes.
But the Powers to Be had not been responsible for giving him his soul back in 1898. A group of Kalderash gypsies from Romania had restored his human soul in an act of revenge for his murder of one of their children. This soul would afflict him with a conscience and condemn him to an eternity of remorse for the crimes he has committed. After Angel lost his soul one hundred years later in 1998, it was Buffy's friend, Willow Rosenberg, who had restored his soul. Come to think of it, Willow performed this act again, five years later, on the behest of Angel's L.A. associates. If the PTB were not responsible for the restoration of his soul, who would have become their "Champion" if Angel had not killed that Kalderash gypsy child?
As for his role in the so-called "˜End of Days' "“ the only task he ended up performing was to hand Buffy the amulet that would help her defeat the First Evil's plans to upset the balance of good and evil. Come to think of it, the heads of Wolfram and Hart "“ the PTB's opposite number "“ had given Angel that amulet. And it was Spike who eventually wore the amulet in the BUFFY series finale, "Chosen" that led to the First Evil's defeat.
From what I have surmised, the Powers to Be only committed one major act in the so-called "war against evil" - they had used Whistler to guide Angel into making his aquaintance with Buffy, before she became a Slayer. They certainly were not responsible for the creation of the Slayer line. And they certainly were not responsible for Angel receiving his human soul. Come to think of it, they were not responsible for Spike retrieving his soul. Apparently, William the Bloody had made the choice to regain his soul. No one made it for him. Which only leads me to wonder just how relevant were the Powers to Be in the Whedonverse.
nerd4hire
Certified Uncloneable
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2002
- Messages
- 9,102
Not bad LL. In fact, I can't believe it. I got through the whole article, and didn't want to choke you once. 🙂 Just kidding, of course, but you have to admit we don't always agree on issues of Buffyverse interpretation.
But yeah, that's always been one of my pet peeves too. Why do people attach so much importance to the Powers That Be? There's no textual inference the powers are even active in BTVS, and ATS is scattered with gripings from the characters on how the powers aren't pulling their weight in the noble fight.
I also was a little curious why you would choose to call them "Powers to be", rather than the more generally accepted "Powers that be", but I can get past that.
Also, I don't understand this one.
I don't understand the phrase "committed the dead".
Edit
On a couple of Ally's comments above, I'm not sure he's accurately interpreting what you're actually saying, but if that's true, I imagine you'll straighten him out. 😉
But yeah, that's always been one of my pet peeves too. Why do people attach so much importance to the Powers That Be? There's no textual inference the powers are even active in BTVS, and ATS is scattered with gripings from the characters on how the powers aren't pulling their weight in the noble fight.
I also was a little curious why you would choose to call them "Powers to be", rather than the more generally accepted "Powers that be", but I can get past that.
Also, I don't understand this one.
I don't understand the phrase "committed the dead".
Edit
On a couple of Ally's comments above, I'm not sure he's accurately interpreting what you're actually saying, but if that's true, I imagine you'll straighten him out. 😉
Cordelia Chase*
Spiley anyone?!
I never thought that the PTB created The Slayer. As I recall GIles saying on the Buffy XBOX game, "The Powers That Be chose one girl in all the world to combat the forces of darkness..."
SO Im guessing it was more like, the shamans created a powerful tool to fight evil. Our same goal. They picked the girl to help out. Thus the watchers and all coming apart of the Slayer's life. I think the PB just simply guide the Slayer and thats all. Or guide anyone else for that matter.
SO Im guessing it was more like, the shamans created a powerful tool to fight evil. Our same goal. They picked the girl to help out. Thus the watchers and all coming apart of the Slayer's life. I think the PB just simply guide the Slayer and thats all. Or guide anyone else for that matter.
The PTB don't take a really active role, I always think along the same way as Christians, God moves in mysterious ways etc.. the butterfly effect type thing, they influence small things which have big effects, but are not always obvious and could be dismissed as coincidences
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Angel himself doesn't have the highest opinion of tptb. While they are "good," I don't think that they're supposed to be "God."
We saw what happened when one of them tried to take a more proactive approach to the good fight (Connor killed her).
We saw what happened when one of them tried to take a more proactive approach to the good fight (Connor killed her).
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Being that AtS pretty much hand held us to the conclusion that she was a fallen/rogue/disenchanted PTB, I don't think its a great leap to make that comment.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Well, I knew she was a Power, but there are lots of Powers. Where was the evidence she was one of the ones That Be? (As in, the group that gives Angel and other Champions their marching orders?)
It's been a while since I've watched the series, so it's entirely possible I've forgotten that part.
It's been a while since I've watched the series, so it's entirely possible I've forgotten that part.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Gunn, in one of the episodes, says something along the lines of 'You mean she is a Power that was?!'
Someone else will have to episode ref that for me.
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]
Ohh and Jasmine confirms it, doesn't she, when she goes on her rant about how she couldn't sit back and do nothing.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
She sure did EB:
"Shiny Happy People"
JASMINE
Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters—the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.
GUNN
You're a power that... was?
JASMINE
But then something new emerged
JASMINE
I heal quickly. It must be a benefit of being a former power, I guess. (smiles)
"Peace Out"
JASMINE
Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart. Shame now I gotta rip it out.
JASMINE
Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. (grabs Angel's face) Thanks to you, this frail, little Power That Was has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands.
"Shiny Happy People"
JASMINE
Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters—the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.
GUNN
You're a power that... was?
JASMINE
But then something new emerged
JASMINE
I heal quickly. It must be a benefit of being a former power, I guess. (smiles)
"Peace Out"
JASMINE
Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart. Shame now I gotta rip it out.
JASMINE
Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. (grabs Angel's face) Thanks to you, this frail, little Power That Was has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Wow. The Powers really are... pretty wimpy, when it comes down to it.
I think in the end, it won't just be the dark powers that get banished from our reality. Buffy and Angel will come to the realization that ALL of the "powers" - whether they claim to be dark or light - are just petty little people like us, hopped up with immortality and superpowers, trying to make us all dance to their favorite tune. And they'll put an end to it.
I think in the end, it won't just be the dark powers that get banished from our reality. Buffy and Angel will come to the realization that ALL of the "powers" - whether they claim to be dark or light - are just petty little people like us, hopped up with immortality and superpowers, trying to make us all dance to their favorite tune. And they'll put an end to it.