The Prom - Was Joyce right?

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Joyce did what a mom would do. Bazillions of moms have pleaded with boyfriends to do what is right for their daughters. But in the world of Buffy, she really could have gone to any college - Angel would have followed.

Angel was getting his own show. They needed a good, strong reason for him to up and leave the girl he loves. He had to do it for Buffy, because doing it for any other reason couldn't work.

Angel leaving was the worst thing that happened to that show.
 
I go back and forth on this issue because ultimately, I do believe that leaving benefited Buffy and Angel both, in the short term at least. However, I find Joyce's actions baffling, if not laughable.

Why did it take three years for her to raise this issue? Before her discussion with Angel in The Prom, the last time Joyce showed any sort of concern or disapproval of Buffy seeing Angel was in the episode "Angel". In season one. That's just insane to me.

Joyce should have had the discussion with Buffy, asked Buffy her plans, where she saw them going and encouraged Buffy to talk with Angel and consider that they had some tough decisions to make. She had no right to go above Buffy's head like that, especially when she had not had any input in Buffy's relationship with Angel before this.

If Buffy had known she would have been furious, and maybe felt more than a little betrayed.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
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So your opinion people. Was Joyce right, was she just being a good mother or was Joyce wrong and should have stayed out of her daughter's business? What's your view on the Joyce/Angel talk?

Personally, I never really saw Buffy as being particularly mature at that point, and as for Joyce having the "right" to speak to Angel, of course she dis, and would have had that exact same right whether Buffy was eighteen twenty eight, or fifty eight. That right comes with being a caring parent, and it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with age. And, as far as going behind Buffy's back is concerned, That was the only way that she could do what she honestly believed that she should do. Obviously, she would have had no luck whatsoever in trying to convince Buffy that any sort of relationship with Angel was doomed before it started (And she was absolutely right. Any time that Buffy and Angel "get together," something bad happens, quite often resulting in someone dying) so she went to Angel on the hope that he could see what Buffy refused to.

And, when you get right down to it, the entire series is about people interfering with Buffy's life, from the Shadow Men, who created the First Slayer and made her calling a perpetual thing, to the Watcher's Council, who tracked her down and drafted, not recruited, her into the duties and responsibilities of the Slayer. Joyce did it, the Watchers did it, Giles did it, Angel did it, Xander did it, Willow did it, the monks who made Buffy the guardian of the Key did it, even Andrew managed to, throughout the entire 7 seasons on TV, on into Season 8, and undoubtedly will continue into Season 9, and every season thereafter. You might say, if everyone had just let Buffy live out her life unmolested, she would have been able to, as Kristy Swanson said in the original movie, "graduated from high school, gone to Europe, married Christian Slater, , and die." It's that interference that makes Buffy possible. Without it, she would have been just another airhead cheerleader.
 
K
kittenpoker
excellent point!
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
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I think that Joyce did the right thing... if only because Angel's as dull as a table lamp.
-runs away-
 
While I'm a hardcore Cangel shipper. I'd have to say that YES Joyce was a bit of a bitch. She didn't need to be hell mean to Angel. She could've said it nicer to him. And then Buffy hell blames Angel for the break up and yells at him, when it was her own mothers fault.
Now I love Joyce, but I don't like it when people are mean to my little Angelcakes. Anyone.
Having said that. She was probably right in a way, they were gonna break up sooner or later, it was inevitable. I think it's just they way Joyce did it, she could've been a little sensitive about the issue more.
 
Joyce is a very wise person which is one reason why I love her. As much as I was like "no, no, no, please don't say that!!!" when I watched it, I knew deep down that she was right which is brilliant because you feel a true sense of what Angel & Buffy felt as far as that goes.
 
Joyce was right to voice her concerns to Angel, as they were valid ones. I understand why Buffy would be upset though, as any decision about whether or not they should end their relationship should be made by them, and not influenced by outside parties.
 
I have to agree with sarah beacuse, as we've ALL seen throughought the series, Buffy makes strong, tough decisions and can take care of herself. She deserves Ange'l love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 09:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------

On the other hand, Joyce was right even though she didn't needd to voice in.
 
There was no future for them! Relationship without sex? Yeah, sure, it'll work, just like abstinence "education." 😕

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

She deserves Ange'l love!

No, Buffy deserves someone who can give her more. As for everyone here, there are at least 3 billion potential mates for you in this world. Don't ever get so hung up on one person--that's where madness and stalkers and obsession and worse leads.
 
I think it was wrong. She shouldn't have went to see Angel like that without Buffy knowing.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with Buffy not thinking far into the future. Wasn't it said in a few eps that Buffy is the longest living slayer in history? Knowing you at best have a handful of years to live you might aswell do what you want with your life and live in the now.

Buffy was clouded by love to a certain point, but she was mature enough to not be blinded by it.

I also think the break up it's self was a waste. Angel left Buffy so she could have a happy life as normal as it could be, but it ended up getting worst for her. By time the time of season 6 Buffy could barely smile anymore.
 
Taake
Taake
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The first time I watched, I was appalled at Joyce for going behind Buffy's back and talking to Angel. I couldn't believe she would try to send someone away that she knew made her daughter so happy, and I thought she was betraying Buffy by doing so.
However, now that I'm a mother myself, I understand her intentions. I have two daughters myself, and I understand that there comes a point in a child's life where they need to go out into the world and experience life and love and loss. Experiences like that help you grow as a person and mature into a wise adult. Joyce knew that if Buffy stayed with Angel, she wouldn't feel the need to experience anything but him, and by encouraging Angel to leave, she knew it would free Buffy to live a fuller life. I see her points in what she said to Angel, and I actually agree with her, even though I do love Buffy and Angel together.
 
K
kittenpoker
I keep meaning to tell you, I love your new avatar and banner!
Joyce didn't say anything to Angel that he didn't already know. He knew what she said was the truth. Sometimes having someone else tell you something you don't want to hear is the only way to get someone to admit the truth.

At the end of the day, Angel realized that Buffy would be graduating high school soon and their relationship would get in the way of her education. She was still so young with a life ahead of her and he didn't want to get in the way of that. What kind of life could they have together? They could never get married, They could never have children. He knew she deserved to have those options. With him..they weren't possible.
 
Joyce was completely wrong. She continues to view Buffy as though she is a normal young girl when that couldnt be farther from the truth. At that point in Buffy's life no one knew how much longer she had to live. Who was she to deny her daughter the little bit of happiness that she never had in her life. It affected Buffy throughtout the entire show. Even in the last season she expressed to her friends that she will never love anyone as much as she loves Angel. I think that her group of frinds and mother had unreasonably high expectations for her and she already had enough to deal with. I.E. When Xander was pissed because Buffy hid the fact that Angel was back and was helping him get better. No one judged him when Anya went bad and came back.

Buffy was bound to have a relationship with a demon or a vampire because no one else would be able to fit into her world. Thats why the relationship with Spike felt so natural to her. I sincerely believe that if Angel and Buffy wouldve stood together they would have found a way to fix his curse. Especially with Willow being as powerful as she was, and Tara helping her with her power. But he left prematurely. He allowed his guilt to get in the way thinking that he was doing the best thing for her so she wouldnt get hurt. News flash he was the only one able to hurt her the most.

I understand that Joyce wanted to help her daughter but I think someone who has saved the world countless times doesnt really need that much help. She is a strong woman and she should have been granted at least some type of pleasure in her life, no matter how anyone else felt about it.

---------- Post added at 09:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 AM ----------

And another thing that pisses me off! Angel said that he didnt want to be with Buffy anymore because he couldnt take her out into the day light, make love to her, have children right?

Gem of Amara = Ability to go out into the daylight
Shanshun / Mohra demon = Ability to make love to her
AND LASTLY!!!
CONNOR = Angel's sun.

It seems as though Angel was able to have all the things that he wanted to give Buffy, but all she got was a fishboy boyfriend and a love sick vampire in love with her.
 
Joyce didn't say anything to Angel that he didn't already know. He knew what she said was the truth. Sometimes having someone else tell you something you don't want to hear is the only way to get someone to admit the truth.

At the end of the day, Angel realized that Buffy would be graduating high school soon and their relationship would get in the way of her education. She was still so young with a life ahead of her and he didn't want to get in the way of that. What kind of life could they have together? They could never get married, They could never have children. He knew she deserved to have those options. With him..they weren't possible.
She's the Slayer- she's probably not going to have any of those things anyway.

And another thing that pisses me off! Angel said that he didnt want to be with Buffy anymore because he couldnt take her out into the day light, make love to her, have children right?

Gem of Amara = Ability to go out into the daylight
Shanshun / Mohra demon = Ability to make love to her
AND LASTLY!!!
CONNOR = Angel's sun.
and what about that "supernatural contraceptive" that Wesley found for Cordelia quite easily. That couldn't have helped Angel? Although I don't agree that Angel & Buffy could have had children, that was very particular to Angel & Darla's circumstances.

It seems as though Angel was able to have all the things that he wanted to give Buffy, but all she got was a fishboy boyfriend and a love sick vampire in love with her.
LOL, great way to put it!

Listen, in general, as a mother, I can sympathize with Joyce. I don't think that her reasoning (and Angel's) was wrong. I just disagree in the way they went about it: Joyce going behind her back, and Angel making the decision for her. She's 18, and wise beyond her years at this point, yet they continue to treat her like a child. Sure I think all of these thing should have been talked about, but everybody around her (Wesley, Joyce, Angel) were trying to make decisions for her at a time when she should have started making decisions for herself.

Also, although those were the reasons Angel gave to Buffy, I don't think they were the only ones: I think he was afraid for her life if he stayed with her (I'm referencing his dream specifically).

Even though I don't like that he left (see my banner? 😀)and how they went about that, if we're talking about the first 3 seasons as a metaphor for surviving high school, they do a good job with an extremely common scenario: what happens to high school romances once high school is over? Very few of them survive the transition to college and adulthood.
 
She's the Slayer- she's probably not going to have any of those things anyway.

These are just my personal opinions..I'm sure we will agree to disagree..I just wanted to express my point.
That is true. However, Nikki Wood was a slayer and she had a son. She must have been a slayer when she had him b/c he was very young at the time of her death.

Also, Riley fights demons and in season 6 we find out he has gotten married. I know he's not the slayer..But if another demon hunter is able to juggle a marriage then maybe Buffy could too.

My general point was that this is BTVS. So many things that we thought couldn't happen..have happened. Besides, In time..As an adult she would grow to want those things. Angel and Buffy would never be able to make love ever again unless she wanted him to go all GRR. Joyce was right..Angel knew it..he knew the honey moon period was over..and even though it hurt he knew he had the do the right thing.
 
I don't think it was right for Joyce to talk to Angel, and hide it from Buffy. We never saw her talk to Buffy about it, and I didn't like that. My mom wouldn't hide something like that from me. I'd be mad at her, but I'd get over it and understand.

But I don't think Joyce had the right to talk to Angel anyhow. angel knew what he was doing, and I think eventually Buffy would have made the same decision for herself. I've found, in my life experience, you can't make someone make a decision, you have to let them come to it themselves. My best friend was dating a real D-bag. I told her I didn't like him, but didn't continue. She had to figure it out herself, or she'd blame me. Buffy and Angel would have come to that decision without Joyce.

So no, I don't think she did the right thing, and I'm still mad at her for what she did.
 
As a parent, I agree with Joyce. She was trying to look out for her daughter. Buffy was still a child when it came to love. Realistically, they could never have a fullfilling relationship, and SOMEONE needed to step in and tell them what's up.

If I were Buffy, however, I would have be furious at my mother. But I think after a few years of growing and maturing as a young lady I would have realized that my mother was right.

There is nothing wrong with looking out for the best interests of your child. That's her job to do that.

But I think the way Angel broke it off was cruel.
 
I see it as being a two sided affair

On the one side, it does seem like Joyce back stabbed Buffy by talking to Angel, and then not properly talking to Buffy about it.

But on the other side, it seems like she was just looking out for her daughter, and that means it was an act of unconditionable love.
 
I'm a bit double sided on this one;
For one I think Joyce thought she was doing what was right for Buffy and handling in her best interest, but on the other hand, making decisions like that for her daughter.....
 
Well if not Joyce can talk to Angel who can ??? At least she is Buffy's mom. It' s only a natural instinct. And she showed Angel his position. Love or Angelous!
 
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