The Red Flags in Buffy Season 8

[Skanky Vamp]

from HoustonPress

Michelle Trachtenberg, who played Dawn Summers on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, recently revealed that inappropriate behavior by series creator Joss Whedon when she was a minor led to a rule that he was never to be allowed on set with her alone. In April 2007, after the show had ended, he started having her drawn nude in the follow-up comic book.

Trachtenberg is one of many who have come forward about Whedon. Ray Fisher stated last year that the director was abusive to him on the set of Justice League, and Gal Gadot has said Whedon pressured her to do a sexually themed joke as Wonder Woman she was not comfortable with. This past week, a host of former Buffy and Angel stars including Charisma Carpenter and Amber Benson, also say that he terrorized and abused his cast, with Carpenter’s tales of his behavior about her pregnancy being particularly vile. Whedon has not responded to these claims.

I remember being very excited when the Buffy Season 8 comic was announced. The series ended on solid note, but there was clearly more story to tell if someone wanted to. The idea of Whedon, who I considered a genius and a feminist, being free of network meddling, budget worries, and the needs of his cast was liberating. Buffy could finally be unrestrained.

What Whedon did when no one was telling him “no” was frankly disturbing, and in light of the recent allegations it’s a clue to how Whedon’s mind works. Though not all of the books were written by Whedon, he executive-produced the series and guided its direction. The Houston Press was unable to contact Whedon for this story.

In the first story arc we find out that Dawn has committed adultery against her magical boyfriend. As result, she has been going through a lot of physical transformations that are illustrated by her being completely naked. Here’s nude Dawn as a giant…

And here's her later as a centaur.

Whedon eventually had Xander end up in a romantic relationship with Dawn, which is creepy considering what we are hearing now. Whedon has always said that Xander was basically his insert character. On the commentary of the episode "Welcome to the Hellmouth" he described this in detail.

Xander, I've always identified as the figure I most was like, 'cause he did have that inability to sort of... talk to the girl and come through in the big moment. And he does make an idiot of himself a lot. Of course, he's a lot prettier and more muscular than anybody who acts like that should be but this is television, so, get over it.

The fact that Whedon made his avatar her boyfriend is not cool considering what Trachtenberg has alleged of their on-set interactions. It's also by no means the only time he seemed to use the pages of the comic as his personal fantasy fulfillment vehicle.

And then the cover of the next issue just straight up has Faith nude.

Willow gets her naked turn in a one-shot.

The person who gets it the worst when it comes to sexual objectification, though, is definitely the title character. Whedon did sexual storylines with Buffy on the show, and they were also always very messed up. Over the course of seven seasons she literally removed Angel's soul because she lost her virginity to him, was caught in a spell where she and Riley were compelled to endlessly have sex because of ghosts, was under another spell when she offered to strip for Xander, and was in a toxic physical relationship with Spike where he penetrated her over her protestations in the middle of a concert and later tried to unsuccessfully rape her in a bathroom.

At least in the comics the majority of Buffy's sexual experiences are apparently entirely consensual, but Whedon ups the ante with the way she is drawn. Here's a fantasy sequence in her head where she's in a threesome while wearing nurse gear.

Later, Whedon has Buffy enter a sexual relationship with Satsu, one of the newly-empowered Slayers under her command. It's actually one of of the better storylines, but the way its presented feels much more like Whedon's excuse to make lesbian porn with his former star.

That theory is supported by the reaction of Xander, who walks in on them. Remember, this is Whedon's insert character.

The worst bit, and the one that made me finally put down the comic because it was clearly more about Whedon getting off than the story, came during the "Twilight" arc. It's revealed that the new bad is actually a superpowered Angel, who has been trying to kill the Slayers because I do not remember and did not bother to learn when I went through my longbox of issues. After a fight, Buffy and Angel then proceed to have earth-shattering (literally) sex for the entire length of an issue. The sub-header of the book is actually called "Them F#©%ing," and it has the least subtle ending of anything ever drawn.

Look, there's nothing wrong with sex in a comic book. Matt Fraction's Sex Criminals and Brian K. Vaughan's Saga are fantastic examples of mature content in the medium. Vaughan actually wrote the "No Future for You" arc, so maybe the general trend of comics into more sexually-themed stories and art should be considered.

On the other hand, these panels were made under the supervision of a man who apparently did not respect boundaries. He's been accused by his ex-wife of cheating on her with the young women in his employ, and according to Trachtenberg his behavior with her crossed a serious line. The Buffy Season 8 comic is an example of what can be done when actor's agency is no longer something to worry about, and it's unsettling how quickly and completely Whedon used that power to reduce his characters to erotica clichés. The whole thing turned into a self-indulgent wank fantasy. In light of the recent allegations, that should have been a much bigger red flag.

 

[TriBel]

Twilight made more sense to me than Satsu but I never really got the Dawn as Centaur story line (although in Lessons Dawn makes a point of saying she's taller than Buffy and Buffy asks if it's wish-fulfilment). Dander...is discussed as a day-dream against a background of pipes...I presumed it to be a visual metaphor - a pipe dream. S12 in its entirety is creepy/uncanny. In S1 there's The Master; in S7 there's a Headmaster (whose office is the centre of evil). In S12, Xander is tending the flames, wearing a Pit Master apron. I think there's every indication he'll turn into a bully like his father. "The Master" is a fairly common metaphor for author (and the Master plays the omniscient narrator/author figure at the end of Lessons, which Whedon wrote). So yeah...I can see Xander as his insert figure but it's not entirely flattering. This is a character who kerb-crawls (stupid American spell-check) Buffy and Faith and ogles Dawn's lactating breasts. It makes it quite clear he's not a feminist. If this is Whedon then he's outed himself. (Xander's fantasy in Dirty Girls...either goes down the pan or ends in shit.

XANDER What's going on? I was sleeping. RONA (irritated) Dominique has the stomach flu, and the toilet bowl is backed up. XANDER (smiles nervously) I'll be right out. (takes one of his hands out from under the covers) Got, uh, a leg cramp.

In all fairness, I think Spike's shown naked on at least one cover. Generally, I don't mind the storylines but the article makes some valid points.

The fact that Whedon made his avatar her boyfriend is not cool considering what Trachtenberg has alleged of their on-set interactions.

I think this is a premature inference.

 

[Priceless]

In the first story arc we find out that Dawn has committed adultery against her magical boyfriend.

Committed adultery against her boyfriend? Is that not a highly religious take on this? They weren't married for one, and I'm not condoning cheating, but they are college kids, so this gets a huge eye roll from me.

As for the drawing of Dawn having a bath, we've seen both Buffy and Faith in similar positions and they were the actual actresses. Was anyone outraged at that?

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I always thought the comics were self-indulgent and that the are bad fanfic by JW.

Leaving aside any RL sexual behavior by JW, b/c, vile as he reportedly is, no one is alleging it - I find the comics hypersexualized and out of character for the characters - and a sign of what unfiltered Joss wants to do to his female characters.

Frankly, the idea of Buffy sleeping with a young girl who is essentially a subordinate who hero-worshipped her sickened me. Shades of the casting couch!

The Buffy we knew was not exploitative and would not use a girl with a crush to take a walk on the wild side - something that apparently meant nothing to her - also not consistent with Buffy. Yes, she used Spike, but he knew the score, they were equals - and she *still* came to have issues with it.

If she had slept with Faith or some other peer, that would not have bothered me.

The sexual politics of the comics do bother me - including the trivialization of Buffy herself. and of real LGBTQ people by having Buffy "play" at 'gay for a day'. In the world we live in enough people try to suggest that being LGBTQ is a "lifestyle choice", and Buffy's behavior plays into this nonsense - just to feed a cheap MALE lesbian fantasy (which only works when the women are mostly really straight and only lesbian to entertain men).

It would have bothered me a lot less if Buffy had fallen in love with another woman and realized she was bisexual OR even sought temporary comfort from someone like Faith, who was her equal. Instead, it was a cheap fling, using a vulnerable girl.

As the article suggests, the comics often seem to be a grand wank fantasy/fan service, mostly for male fans, since it is mostly women on display or doing sexually questionable activities, even being stupid and irresponsible about their activities.

And it uses the likenesses and imagery of the show's stars to do things that go far beyond anything they would have expected when signing on.

I now understand why Emma (Anya) asked to be killed off in the end of the TV show. She was done.

I won't extrapolate to Joss' RL sexual behavior b/c we have no testimony of it - other than his wife talking about infidelities, but without corroboration or testimony of others (not saying i dont believe her, i just dont know enough for a judgment.

Right now what we have is testimony from many places that he is a pretty vile person. His "creative" choices when unrestrained by network, actors and various other TV entities do make me uncomfortable.

His willingness to push way past the known limits of his stars feels gratuitous and an unnecessary abuse.

The more I know and the more I think of what I already know, the less I like Joss Whedon. This makes me sad, because he has tremendous talent - but he is too much Angelus, not Angel. Do not like.

 

[Btvs fan]

I always had issues even before all this with Buffy/Satsu stuff and how the panel art was drawn. It was very child like ams very creepy imo

 

[Taake]

Committed adultery against her boyfriend? Is that not a highly religious take on this? They weren't married for one, and I'm not condoning cheating, but they are college kids, so this gets a huge eye roll from me.

I was thinking that too, very oddly phrased.

but to be honest, I feel like people are now just over reading stuff because it is ok to hate Joss and now everything he has ever done must be questioned/seen as nefarious.

It is turning the most unexpected people quite puritanical too.

But also, hasn’t Joss said that he always thought Xander was his kind of stand-in character but then realized it was actually Buffy all along? Should we accuse him of trying to skin Sarah Michelle Gellar and crawl into her being, Buffalo Bill style, while we bring him to the scaffold?

This is just turning into a giant Orwellian hate-fest with very little solid info and a lot of conjecture.

 

[The Bronze]

Reminds me of transfer deadline day in the Premier League where we get reports that someones brothers mates cousin saw Messi arriving in Manchester.

This panel in this comic that Joss may or may not have paid any attention to proves he's Satan. Why didn't we see it earlier!? The Sherlock stuff isn't necessary. Someone can be an arse and make decent content.

Also someone might want to break it to the writer that adult women aren't always covered head to toe. They have sex and fantasies in real life as well.

 

[TriBel]

That Dawn becomes the monstrous feminine is Freudian - it's also the name of one of the most influential books on horror film. This is how Wiki describes it. The Monstrous Feminine refers to the interpretation of horror films conceptualizing women, predominantly, as victims. Throughout the book, [Barbara] Creed observes how women are positioned as victims within the horror film genre, and challenges this overriding patriarchal and one-dimensional understanding of women.

I don't have a problem with Buffy being "out of character". A stable identity/self is an odd concept to me. Besides, you change the world and it changes you. The Chosen spell brings her into a head on collision with patriarchy in all its forms. Twilight is simply one of these forms - easily inferred from Freud's Totem and Taboo and Liam/Angelus's past. T&T is central to Apocalypse Now - the film they watch during Restless. Twilight's manifestation is simply the return of the repressed. It's the compulsion to repeat that provides the text with its dynamic. Killing Giles is part of the same cycle. Whedon knows this. He's read Joseph Campbell and I can't believe he hasn't read Creed. (@Btvs fan - that article you linked to was really useful). You couldn't move in Film schools for copies of Creed.

Overall, Creed's work is of interest to feminist theory and psychoanalysis and how these theories can be applied to horror films. Her work seriously considers the subjects of feminism, psychoanalysis, and post-culturalism. Her themes of investigation incorporate, horror cinema, depictions of sex, and feminism. Creed's work relies on a number of theorists including Sigmund Freud, and Julia Kristeva.
Julia Kristeva is one of Creed's major feminist influencers, as she studied Kristeva in great depth, particularly with her examination of the abject. Creed wrote an essay on Kristeva and film in 1985 for the British Film Journal. Creed's The Monstrous-Feminine which was published in 1993 and it clearly draws inspiration from her earlier work on Kristeva.

Xander's S7 fantasy ending in shit IS the abject/abjection.

Oh FGS! It's here - in a commencement speech he gave at Wesleyan.

"You are all going to die" Joss Whedon's Wesleyan Commencement Speech

It's not the most comforting thing in the world to have the director known for killing off his characters remind you of your own mortality. But Joss

io9.gizmodo.com

"It's not the most comforting thing in the world to have the director known for killing off his characters remind you of your own mortality. But Joss Whedon's speech at today's Wesleyan University commencement wasn't about comfort; it was about accepting contradictions and learning to listen to dissent from ourselves and others.

Wesleyan has posted a transcript of Whedon's speech, which starts with a story about the commencement speech he heard during his Wesleyan graduation ceremony. Bill Cosby asserted that there was no point in trying to change the world, a claim with which Whedon naturally took issue. It's not a question of changing the world, he says, but a question of staying connected to the world, even to the parts of the world—and the parts of ourselves—with which we disagree:

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that two roads diverged in the woods and you took the path less traveled. Part of you is just going, “Look at that path! Over there, it’s much better. Everyone is traveling on it. It’s paved, and there’s like a Starbucks every 40 yards. This is wrong. In this one, there’s nettles and Robert Frost’s body—somebody should have moved that—it just feels weird. And not only does your mind tell you this, it is on that other path, it is behaving as though it is on that path. It is doing the opposite of what you are doing. And for your entire life, you will be doing, on some level, the opposite—not only of what you were doing—but of what you think you are. That is just going to go on. What you do with all your heart, you will do the opposite of. And what you need to do is to honor that, to understand it, to unearth it, to listen to this other voice.

You have, which is a rare thing, that ability and the responsibility to listen to the dissent in yourself, to at least give it the floor, because it is the key—not only to consciousness—but to real growth. To accept duality is to earn identity. And identity is something that you are constantly earning. It is not just who you are. It is a process that you must be active in. It’s not just parroting your parents or the thoughts of your learned teachers. It is now more than ever about understanding yourself so you can become yourself.

I talk about this contradiction, and this tension, there’s two things I want to say about it. One, it never goes away. And if you think that achieving something, if you think that solving something, if you think a career or a relationship will quiet that voice, it will not. If you think that happiness means total peace, you will never be happy. Peace comes from the acceptance of the part of you that can never be at peace. It will always be in conflict. If you accept that, everything gets a lot better.

The other reason is because you are establishing your identities and your beliefs, you need to argue yourself down, because somebody else will. Somebody’s going to come at you, and whatever your belief, your idea, your ambition, somebody’s going to question it. And unless you have first, you won’t be able to answer back, you won’t be able to hold your ground. You don’t believe me, try taking a stand on just one leg. You need to see both sides."

Yeah...I'm happy with this. It's a perfect explanation of Buffy S5-12 and it's why I like Spuffy because Spike's a vehicle for this exploration of self. The comics are fine...S8 is hypersexualized (it's hyper everything) but I can live with that.

I repeat what I said before...Whedon's an arse...he's also a very, very clever arse.

 

[thetopher]

Man, I have problems with S8 but that's because of little story things like the crazy plot and broken world-building. The criticisms here seem so utterly superficial.
We have 40 issues and numerous spin-offs in S8 and the writer picks out 2 whole pages of semi-naked Dawn, and 2 whole covers of semi-naked characters and also that panel where Buffy has a fantasy involving objectifying her two former love interests. I mean, its shallow but no, we're not staring into the heart of some dark truth here.

- Obviously Dawn is treated as more of a grown-up int he comics because well, she's more grown up. By the time the comics were being written Michelle would've been much older and the character of Dawn would've been 18 or so? Dawn's maturity is emphasized in many ways so her relationship with Xander won't weird everybody out (it still weirded some people out but whatever).
- Dawn being cursed for cheating on a guy is not pruritanical judgement but it can be read that way, just like the BuffY/Angelus stuff can- because that's what its mirroring/inverting. A summer's woman sleeps with the wrong guy and then bad stuff happens. It's a simplistic repetition, not some toxic mindset.

- Buffy sleeping with Satsu. Was it wise? Nope, but it was in character. Buffy didn't promise Satsu anything and they ended things on relatively good terms. Also I really don't see this is as a MALE thing because MALE is not some homogeneous group mind thing. Some guys thought Buffy/Satsu was stupid, I know quite a few female LGBTQ people who liked it. On the whole I did not like it for a few key reasons but then I'm bias.

This whole thing is some serious projection 'Whedon is bad, 'kay, and he's always been bad, look at the bad stuff here, don't you see, it was there all along!!' sigh.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Gotta say I'm not a fan of overanalyzing a creative work and reaching to find problematic elements in it, even if one of the creators has been revealed as morally questionable.
I'll go even a step further and say that, bar an extremely explicit expression of hate and a call for actual harmful actions, even if the work does include problematic elements, it shouldn't be held against the creator to the same level as irl actions.
Even leaving aside the fact that creative process has a lot of layers to it and I doubt that any of the things mentioned in the article come from one unique obsession or motivation, art exists for catharsis : expressing one's feelings, fears and desires through art, even when they're less than laudable, is imo a rather healthy way of dealing with them. There are some exceptions I'm sure, but I'm not comfortable with the idea of shaming or blowing out of proportion what is ultimately a subjective interpretation of an artist's intent and morality.

And I say all this as someone who finds a lot of the comic stuff sketchy.

 

[burrunjor]

Desperate bandwagon jumping here.

If anything I thought the point of Buffy's fantasy about Spike was to show a female character objectifying a male character the way women normally are?

Also did Joss even write all of these stories anyway? Was his name not often just slapped on them to sell more copies?

 

[Faded90]

There’s a LOT of issues with the comics, in fact barring a few things I liked I largely think they’re terrible but the issues mentioned aren’t even close to the problem

I don’t think Buffy/Satsu was OOC or problematic, both of them are weirdly the most mature about it, they pretty much come to the conclusion ‘it was fun, we enjoyed it but I’m your boss so it can’t happen’. What WAS an issue for me is You then get every other character speaking for Buffy’s sexuality ‘you’re clearly not gay!’ (Does she have to be?) and Willow telling Satsu ‘Buffy’s straight, she’s not like us and don’t try to think that she is!’

Spike and Xander weirdly slut-shaming Buffy (5 WHOLE lovers, how dare she) with almost exactly the same speech to say ‘oh so you want to be with us now, what about when you were with other people before! ‘

Dawn and Willow bizarrely ‘nice guy’ing Buffy to get back with Spike. A tantrumming Dawn telling Buffy ‘how dare you not give him another chance, if you don’t get back with him it means you don’t want to be happy!’ Despite there being a multiude of very genuine reasons why she might not want to. And Willow popping along ‘yeah Buffy he’s a better guy than he used to be’
- Wow Willow that is a shamefully low bar you’ve set for your best friend

Honestly I could go on and on.
There’s a lot of iffy stuff in the comics that doesn’t sit right with me or just outright annoys me. Seeing some semi naked bodies and fantasties is the absolute least of it

 

[TriBel]

If anything I thought the point of Buffy's fantasy about Spike was to show a female character objectifying a male character the way women normally are?

It depends. Noxon said S6/7 were about writing a female gaze that wasn't the inverse of the objectifying male gaze. I think they manage this in Touched (touch blurs the lines between subject/object - the male gaze reinforces it) but they can only do this with Buffy/Spike in isolation and outside time, history and language. They bring it back at the end - which is why she doesn't speak about the future but kinda looks into it without seeing/knowing (shot-wise, it might be figured by the vanishing point...I can't remember). In S8 she's plunged into a war and her only real option is to appropriate the tools of her oppressors. She becomes the Matriarch, which is really only a Patriarch in a dress...so it's likely she's fallen back on subject/object (and kinda explains why characters keep insisting she's not gay). There may be more finesse towards the end of (and throughout) S8 but I can't remember - the big problem I have with S8 - aside from its complexity - is its length.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Have to say, having been nauseated by the comics before all yhis came out, some of what has come out helped me understand why something as great aa Buffy went completely off the rails. I am no puritan. I feankly think it is Joss that might be. Sex leads to bad things is a very prevalent attitude.

Can one be puritanical and objectify women? Absolutely! In fact, it is almost neceasary for most punish the slut porn. We see this in most horror movies and a lot of Hollywood. Women who are sexual always suffer. (As many men seem to think the deserve to). Then the scantily clad bimbo can squirm and they can get off while she "gets what she deserves".

He only truly subverted the tropes back in the series. I credit SMG and the gatekeepers for a lot more of it than I used to.

Everyone is fascinated with sex. I know I am! It is disturbing that so much of the Buffy comics represent the same male fantasies found in porn.

Most female fantasy involves women liberated to be sexual and satisfied, (often a bit passive for my taste, but satisfied) and female erotica and fanfic often has them connecting emotionally with the sexual focus of the story.

Many men fantasize about "straight' lesbians. And punishing sexual women for being sluts. It is generally men that want to bed the worshipful engenue, to sleep with the 'innocent' and 'leave them happy", no strings! So maybe Joss was channeling his desire to be Buffy too?

Sorry, the Buffy who beds Satsu is a lot more 'Parker' than 'Buffy'.

I have a lot of difficulties with the comics and have always done.

But then, even as I knew Joss was talented, I never thought he was good or nice or a saint. Even back when I mostly liked him (while the show was still on the air), i always saw him as human. Not god. I actually put down a recent book about the Buffyverse recently when the author gushed that "joss whedon is a god'. Just no. Talented, interesting, funny and smart, yes. God, no.

I have only been surprised by how badly he treated real people.

The comics have always felt like a twelve year old libido wrote them. I have always found they were petty to the characters and objectified rather than being there 'with' them (as we saw a lot more in the Angel, after the fall comics).

The Buffy comics were about what he could get away with - not in imaginative ways (Dollhuse, not Altered Carbon) but in very predictable ways that lost CHARACTER and became soley about cheap spectacle.

Character and thought provoking and *funny* is why I am STILL watching Buffy the series (currently season 4 in my most recent watch through that i started a few weeks before this mess began) but I will never reread the comics, though I did buy them.

IMO, Joss is best when he has a governor to prevent him going full throttle id.

I have called the comics Joss' fanfic in my tth profile for at least six years, btw. No bandwagon.

The recent revelations only tend to clarify his worldview. To give me a why for the what.

And make me sad for the cast and crew.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Man, I have problems with S8 but that's because of little story things like the crazy plot and broken world-building. The criticisms here seem so utterly superficial.
We have 40 issues and numerous spin-offs in S8 and the writer picks out 2 whole pages of semi-naked Dawn, and 2 whole covers of semi-naked characters and also that panel where Buffy has a fantasy involving objectifying her two former love interests. I mean, its shallow but no, we're not staring into the heart of some dark truth here.

- Obviously Dawn is treated as more of a grown-up int he comics because well, she's more grown up. By the time the comics were being written Michelle would've been much older and the character of Dawn would've been 18 or so? Dawn's maturity is emphasized in many ways so her relationship with Xander won't weird everybody out (it still weirded some people out but whatever).
- Dawn being cursed for cheating on a guy is not pruritanical judgement but it can be read that way, just like the BuffY/Angelus stuff can- because that's what its mirroring/inverting. A summer's woman sleeps with the wrong guy and then bad stuff happens. It's a simplistic repetition, not some toxic mindset.

- Buffy sleeping with Satsu. Was it wise? Nope, but it was in character. Buffy didn't promise Satsu anything and they ended things on relatively good terms. Also I really don't see this is as a MALE thing because MALE is not some homogeneous group mind thing. Some guys thought Buffy/Satsu was stupid, I know quite a few female LGBTQ people who liked it. On the whole I did not like it for a few key reasons but then I'm bias.

This whole thing is some serious projection 'Whedon is bad, 'kay, and he's always been bad, look at the bad stuff here, don't you see, it was there all along!!' sigh.

Naked is not grown up. Dawn is shown as juvenile, trivial and 'object'.
I have no issue with nudity, btw. Just the nonsensical, TRIVIAL way Dawn becomes a joke, an object for the male gaze and finally "appendage".

Buffy regresses. Her decisions stop being adult. She loses agency. I like Buffy with agency. I love that she has true power.

The comics diminish this. This is true regardless of what we have learned.

What we are learning only makes it a bit less surprising that the comics departed the Buffyverse we knew and loved. He did not lose his vision. The comics are his unfettered worldview. Some like it. That is their prerogative. I never have, and now i guess I understand a bit more why.

 

[Faded90]

Naked is not grown up. Dawn is shown as juvenile, trivial and 'object'.
I have no issue with nudity, btw. Just the nonsensical, TRIVIAL way Dawn becomes a joke, an object for the male gaze and finally "appendage".

Buffy regresses. Her decisions stop being adult. She loses agency. I like Buffy with agency. I love that she has true power.

The comics diminish this. This is true regardless of what we have learned.

What we are learning only makes it a bit less surprising that the comics departed the Buffyverse we knew and loved. He did not lose his vision. The comics are his unfettered worldview. Some like it. That is their prerogative. I never have, and now i guess I understand a bit more why.

I find in the comics despite being the titular characters Buffy and Angel are the characters they lose the most. Buffy particularly regresses into a sappy teenager full of self doubts and allowing others to make decisions for her. This absolutely goes against all of the growth she made in particularly S7 and her ‘I’ll decide my future’ cookie dough speech. It’s why the definitive canon will always end of Chosen and Not Fade Away for me

 

[thetopher]

Naked is not grown up. Dawn is shown as juvenile, trivial and 'object'.

Disagree I guess. Dawn isn't trivialized to any degree less than, for example, Giles or Faith. Her sub-plot is one of the focuses of S8, her characterization is good, she uses her 'affliction'/superpowers to help others rather than wallow in self-pity and her conversation and /relationship with Xander is nicely depicted.

Buffy regresses. Her decisions stop being adult.

I'd agree with this but really the signs of Buffy acting this way were present in the last season if you look for them. The difference is that in the comics she loses most of her good qualities that balanced her out and becomes utterly self-centered. By the time s10 comes around she is insufferable.

The comics diminish this.

The comics diminish most things and most of those things have little to do with mild titillation. After all the show had that sort of thing for the female viewer all the tiume and few fans object to that aspect of it.
The problems with the comics are far more substantive, like how about the way slayers in general are re-defined in S9. Puts a really negative spin on S7 empowerment metaphor.

 

[GreyWalker1958]

I always had issues even before all this with Buffy/Satsu stuff and how the panel art was drawn. It was very child like ams very creepy imo

They'd been dwarfish if Dark Horse were to afford Richard Corben