The Relationships

[Uncle Rory]

After a lot of really deep thought I have come to a conclusion about the relationships on the show. First off, and if you find it offensive - me and my rat's derierre will be up all night worrying about it - I hate the Spuffy, Bangel, Cangel terminology that in my opinion equates the Buffyverse to the level of Entertainment tonight or Current Affairs - but whatever.

So in the hopes of creating TONS of controversy here is my take on the relationships on the show(s).

They are in order of appearance and possibly importance.

Buffy and Angel.
Willow and Oz.
Buffy and Riley.
Willow and Tara.
Buffy and Spike.
Willow and Kennedy.
Angel and Cordy.
Angel and Nina.

Let's get the big one over with - Who should or could be with Buffy? Process of elimination - Riley was a card carrying Wuss in a soldiers uniform and he's now married to a Mommy figure so unless she kicks the bucket (one can hope) and he grows a pair, he's out of the running. (The "we love Buffy and Riley together faction" are meeting for a long walk on a short pier this afternoon at 5 pm.)

Buffy and Angel - The relationship that set the tone for the show, intrigued us all and (for some) upped the teenaged angst factor to the max. But we all know that from Angel's point of view Buffy can never be unless we want Angelus set loose again. (or if we want Angel defanged and made a real boy again - what is this Pinochio? Absolutely not a cool idea, as proven by the rank smell of the "After the Fall" comics "insert sucking sound here.")

Evidently the only possible for Buffy is a long term with Spike. He is completely her type (dead and sometimes evil) yet he has a soul and no curse that will cause him to go all homicidal anytime they get physical. No mistakes with the meat stake. Could a Human satisfy little miss likes to fight? Doubtful. Even less doubtful as the years pass. She'll just get friskier as the Man losses interest. There is only so much Viagra around so the logical solution is a Spike (Pun pun)

Ok - Willow and Oz vs. Willow and Tara vs. Willow and Kennedy.

Sadly for some viewers and / or readers Willow remains with Kennedy and that particular bit of canon can't be denied since it happened in the show as oppossed to the comic so deal with it. Tara was a great character, a great loss but their getting together was one of the weakest bits of story telling in the history of TV. I mean I'm not a gay woman (that anyone would notice) but even I thought that her falling into the arms of a woman while still mourning the loss of her first boyfriend was totally REACTIONARY. I would have preferred to see Willow just come to the realization over time that she just wasn't so into guys. - Strong and self aware is Cooler in my book than REACTIONARY. But hell, that's gender politics so I'll just take my cue from those who it affects and try to be open minded and supportive without bias or predjudice.

And finally Angel and Cordy. If Angel and Cordy were true love as hinted at close to the end of season 3, wouldn't Angel just have been back where he started? Angel has with Cordy - Angelus appears - Cordy dies or gets turned?

Angel with Nina seems like a better combo. He likes her but doesn't love her so they can get it on like Bunnies (no offense to Anya fans) without the threat of Angel losing his soul.

Logical conclusions.

Let the war begin.

Uncle Rory
(PS. This post was meant to be tounge in cheek. If any reader felt their blood pressure rise, anger and bile fill their throats and / or the instant urge to tear out my eyeballs and replace them with hot coals, said person may be suffering from JOSSWHEDONITIS a serious mental condition which can only be cured by vigorous mental therapy and regular viewings of Grey's Anatomy or Charmed)

 

[Revolver]

Actually, I agree with much of what you said. Frankly, as much as people tend to be into the romance on Buffy/Angel, I think Joss Whedon's take on it is flawed. He has said he thinks romances are more interesting when they don't go smoothly. Fair enough, but they pretty much NEVER work out on a Joss Whedon show. If there is any kind of romantic arc at all on Dollhouse, I'm not going to care about it at all because it's completely and utterly pointless if you've been paying attention.

 

[Spuffy is true love]

I agree with most of what you said except one thing. I don't think Willow was actually gay. She said in one of the eps (it slips my mind right now) that she was in love with a Woman, one, and that was Tara, did she really love Kennedy or come on to Fred as we kinda see in season 4 of Angel, I doubt it. I think that being gay was the only thing Willow had left of Tara and that is why she continued to try and go down that path. Because she wasn't really gay is why it was hard for her to accept a relationship with kennedy and they never really expanded on Fred.

completely agree with Buffy and Riley and Completely agree with Buffy and Angel. I think the whole reason that it would work with Spike is I think Spike truly loved her. Spike went out and suffered to get his soul b/c he knew that was the only way to impress Buffy. Angel didn't try that at all, he just settled with the curse and left Sunnydale in order to be human, big deal. Angel and cordy I think had potential but same thing with the Angel/Buffy deal like you point out.

Well written!

 

[white avenger]

I find myself agreeing with you on:

Buffy and Angel
Buffy and Riley
Buffy and Spike
Willow and Kennedy, (reluctantly)
Angel and Cordy
and
Angel and Nina (I saw that coming almost from the moment Nina was bitten)

I guess it just shows how great minds work alike.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

And what of Xander's relationships? Xander/Cordy? THe brief Xander/Willow fling? Xander/Anya? They are important too.

 

[Urgent Power]

I actually really really really like those fights! It's one of the best things in the Buffyverse! Joss is brilliant and he didn't create shallow couples, like he didn't create shallow characters. There was always something there (most of the time, because Willow and Kennedy were a little off).

I agree with most of it. However, about Buffy and Spike, with Spike being the Mr. Right, I assume you meant if he wasn't a vampire or to be turned into human again? Because if he stays a vamp, there is no way he will be with Buffy, even me as a Spuffy knows that. But if he turns human, yeah I agree, no doubt, he's Buffy's everything.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Basically, my understanding of the purpose of the ship names is for recognition so everyone knows who you're referring too. Also, it's less to type when you're discussing it. Instead of typing Kennedy and Willow...you can just refer to it as Killow. I used to dislike the whole ship name thing too...but then I realized it's just more convenient.

Evidently the only possible for Buffy is a long term with Spike. He is completely her type (dead and sometimes evil) yet he has a soul and no curse that will cause him to go all homicidal anytime they get physical. No mistakes with the meat stake. Could a Human satisfy little miss likes to fight? Doubtful. Even less doubtful as the years pass. She'll just get friskier as the Man losses interest. There is only so much Viagra around so the logical solution is a Spike.

Well, your whole post is great, but in the interest of my current time contraint, I'll choose to comment on this passage now 😉

Now, as much as I love Spike and Buffy, I do not think he is the long-haul guy. I don't think he's shown up yet. Maybe he never will. Hell, maybe it's this Sastu girl. Maybe being the Slayer means being alone. Who knows.

I would be very surprised if Joss got Spuffy back together. I think her relationship with Spike, Angel, Riley etc. were just stepping stones in the formulation of her mature, adult being. All her relationships up to this point have been important in forming the person she is - and she has learned from all of them. As much as I love seeing Buff and Spike get it on - I believe they are truly better and more functional as close friends. I do not think and never have thought he was her true love, and yes, I still to this day do not believe her "I love you" to him in "Chosen". As much as I wish I did.

I agree with you when you say that Buffy likes a little monster in her man. Spike has known her better then anyone. He knows what she wants and what she doesn't, and he has helped her realize that even if it's not him. He loves her for who she is and would accept her decision if she didn't want to get back with him (if they met again).

Anyhow. I agree with you 100 percent that it is doubtful that Buffy could in the long run be sadisfied with a human man.

Great post 🙂

 

[Silum]

Great post 🙂

I certainly dont want to turn this into a spuffy thread but i want to quickly comment on your post.

I totally agree that spike is a stepping stone and that Buffy's future is very much undecided.

That said, Buffy and Spike at this point should very much be together. Their relationship had grown and grown through S7 and I very much believe her 'I love you' comment was a statement of how she felt... how could it not? You'd have to blidfold yourself for all of S7 to not notice some serious chemestry between them. Spike is great for Buffy, he is a monster with a soul, strength close to that of Buffys (which imo is required, see Riley for example).

Once Buffy realizes Spike is alive, in my mind after watching the show I would only expect them to continue their little affair. Of course, thats not going to happen in writersville for various reasons (Bangel shippers, moving on etc) but i would imagine if I was buffy, i would most certainly want to see where things would go with Spike.

Do I see their relationship as ultimately lasting? No. Because I dont see any relationship lasting. Buffy has too many responsibilities, she always will, and imo she will never meet someone good enough for her. <--- hows that for Buffy love.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Uncle Rory agrees: Too insipid. Too Angelina Jolie / Brad Pitt. Just case ET does it, should we? YUCH!!

To be honest, I think Fandom has used ship names (be it in Bangel form or B/A form) for longer than ET. I think they got it from us.

 

[Blaze]

By Spuffy is true love

I agree with most of what you said except one thing. I don't think Willow was actually gay. She said in one of the eps (it slips my mind right now) that she was in love with a Woman, one, and that was Tara, did she really love Kennedy or come on to Fred as we kinda see in season 4 of Angel, I doubt it. I think that being gay was the only thing Willow had left of Tara and that is why she continued to try and go down that path. Because she wasn't really gay is why it was hard for her to accept a relationship with kennedy and they never really expanded on Fred.

Willow, not gay?? I would have accepted that you argued that she was bi but not gay at all, I don't think so. Sure, Willow said that she only loved one woman in 'the Killer in Me' but btw, it was while she was on her date with Kennedy and it didn't meant that she wasn't gay, it simply meant that Tara was the one so therefore she never fell for somebody else during the time that Tara was alive. And I don't think that Willow tried to fall for Kennedy. I know everybody hates her but we could all argue that there was a connection there. Willow definetly cared about her and Kennedy did too. And I'm not saying that Willow was never in love or never liked Oz. It was her first real relation so of course it meant a lot but it doesn't mean that Willow is completly straight because she dated a guy. What it means is that technicly, she has the right to dates who she wants to date. if she wants to be with a girl right now and consider herself gay, that fine with me, if she later on wants to date a guys, and consider herself bi then thats fine with me too. But I don't think it will be accuret to call her straight. (wow I just used a whole lot of labelling for somebody that is against labelling)

by Uncle Rory
Tara was a great character, a great loss but their getting together was one of the weakest bits of story telling in the history of TV. I mean I'm not a gay woman (that anyone would notice) but even I thought that her falling into the arms of a woman while still mourning the loss of her first boyfriend was totally REACTIONARY.

Willow didn't fell for Tara all of a sudden, there was a huge buildup and she did dable. They made it clear that she was confuse in 'New Moon Rising'. So the relation was not weak in the storytelling in my idea. I've seen these sort of things happen in real life and even stranger things so it wasn't as weird of a story line as you might think.

Ok. I'm done now, I'll stop bothering you with my crazy defensive thing of Willow and Tara🙂

-Blaze-

PS. Do I have JOSSWHEDONITIS???

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Personally, as of 2009 I'd like to see:

Buffy + Angel [LATER]
Cordy + Doyle
Fred + Wes
Faith + Robin
Fray + Spike

I don't see Willow loving anyone as much as she loved Tara, I mean, she loved Oz so much it hurt, and she loved Tara more than that!

And I don't see Xander loving anyone as much as he did Anya. I know it sounds cheesy, but he loved Anya to the point where he denied himself of her to keep her from having what he predicted to be a crappy future.

That said, I do think Willow & Xander will find replacements, but it won't be the same thing (maybe Kennedy will be Willow's girl for the next 60 years).

Buffy + Angel, I don't even have to elaborate on that one, since even "anti" folks can guess.

Cordy + Doyle, I think Doyle truly loved Cordy more than he did anyone else. Let's face it, there's no way Angel loved Cordy more than he did Buffy, he tried to kill himself because he couldn't keep his hands off of Buf! Plus Cordy & Doyle are both dead, and former PTB employees, so...

Fred + Wes, both dead, clearly soul mates

Faith + Robin, what other man could handle Faith? I don't mean that in a bad way at all, Robin's pretty much the only guy that can keep up with her physically & emotionally.

Fray + Spike, I think I may have actually been the first to think of this, but I think it makes sense. I don't think SPike even really wants to be human if you take Buffy & Angel out of the equation. He's a happy Vampire Champion, unlike Angel who hates being a vamp. I think it would be really cool if Spike survives into Fray's time and continues his role as a Champion ally to the Slayer. And since they're both bad@$$ and play by their own rules, even better.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I certainly dont want to turn this into a spuffy thread but i want to quickly comment on your post.

I totally agree that spike is a stepping stone and that Buffy's future is very much undecided.

That said, Buffy and Spike at this point should very much be together. Their relationship had grown and grown through S7 and I very much believe her 'I love you' comment was a statement of how she felt... how could it not? You'd have to blidfold yourself for all of S7 to not notice some serious chemestry between them. Spike is great for Buffy, he is a monster with a soul, strength close to that of Buffys (which imo is required, see Riley for example).

Once Buffy realizes Spike is alive, in my mind after watching the show I would only expect them to continue their little affair. Of course, thats not going to happen in writersville for various reasons (Bangel shippers, moving on etc) but i would imagine if I was buffy, i would most certainly want to see where things would go with Spike.

Do I see their relationship as ultimately lasting? No. Because I dont see any relationship lasting. Buffy has too many responsibilities, she always will, and imo she will never meet someone good enough for her. <--- hows that for Buffy love.

Believe me, I have put quite a bit of thought into if I believe her 'I love you' statement. I want too. I really, really want too. It just seems forced to me, too conveinent, and out of character. Joss wanted to please both parties - that statement was for the Spuffies and the 'cookie dough' speech was for the Bangels. He wanted all of us to be happy and imagine our own future for her.

Yes, she did very much care for Spike - her actions speak a thousend words. They were very close and I do believe that he knew her better than anyone ever will.

BUT

I do not believe she loved in as much as she loved Angel. It pains me to say this as you all know I'm the biggest anti-Bangel around - but I think what happened with Angel really scarred her, as a result, she cut herself off. She even admits it. We all know she never loved Riley even though he very much deserved it (in my opinion). And she had ample opportunity to say she did. The most she does to admitting she cares about Spike more then as her sex toy is in "End of Days" (?) when she admits she "felt something" that night.

I absolutely agree that out of all of her relationships, Spike was the best for her. Yes, they had great chemistry, they understood eachother, and were of equal intellect and physical power. They had been through so many things together. They grew from enemies to allies to lovers to friends. It's a brilliant, classic romance... yet it just seems to be missing something.

If you believe Buffy loved Spike that is totally valid. Yet believing she did not (or does not, I guess...) is also equally valid. Art is about interpretation We all assign meanings to things for our own reasons. If it were sopposed to be so obvious she loved ihm (like with Angel) we wouldn't be debating this. 🙂

But think about it. Yes, she's attracted to him. Yes she trusts him. Yes she confides in him and goes to him for comfort. But does she love him? There's a reason why this debate will never end. There are compelling arugments either way.

I would love for them to meet again and continue to explore their feelings for eachother...but who knows. I'm not holding my breath.

And lasty, yes I agree. Sadly, I don't think it is possible for the Slayer ot have a lasting, traditional relationship. It just doesn't really work with her lifestyle.

 

[Silum]

Great post Becky,

I see where your coming from. The problem is your definition of love is very finite. Im only 23 but ive been in more that one relationship where the concept of 'love' played a part. Similarly, when Buffy tells Spike she loves him, it doesnt have to be the same kind of love that she and Angel had, its neither better nor worse; just different. Buffy and Spike were clearly romantically involved by S7 end and when she tells me that shes in love, i take it as she says it... love is multifaceted and isn't a 'level' upon which you ascend to.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Great post Becky,

I see where your coming from. The problem is your definition of love is very finite. Im only 23 but ive been in more that one relationship where the concept of 'love' played a part. Similarly, when Buffy tells Spike she loves him, it doesnt have to be the same kind of love that she and Angel had, its neither better nor worse; just different. Buffy and Spike were clearly romantically involved by S7 end and when she tells me that shes in love, i take it as she says it... love is multifaceted and isn't a 'level' upon which you ascend to.

Great point, Silium. I do tend to think of things finitely. I should probobly work on that. There are different types of love, agreed.

I also think that a lot of her "i love you" was her trying to say how proud she was of him. She was around to see him fall and pick himself up and redeem himself and become a better man. Also, she knew he was dying, sacrificing himself to save the world. And after all he'd done for her, he deserved her love I think.

 

[sibby]

Angel and Cordy! they are soo cute

 

[silverspirit]

Importance is not the same as the best/deepest/truest relationship, or even what the characters each get out of the relationship.

For example, Buffy and Angel - Buffy never really got anything out of the relationship - she never grew as a person to any extent, but Angel got his most important goal - a sight for redemption (you can see some more of my posts for extra info).

Cordy and Angel was about growth, hope and his soul, much more than buffy, but without the first relationship, the second could not happen. Being a cordy/angel supporter, I think that the second relationship was much more personallyimportant to the characters themselves.

I would also rate Cordy/Xanders relationship important to the growth of her character, If you look hard, you can see glimpses of cordy's angel character even in season 1 buffy.

I think ranking each relationship in isolation is fruitless, as every relationship changes the character for good or bad in some way, some informs the next relationship the character has.

Except for Cordy and doyle - well she did get the vision thing.

Also Cordy and connor, the pregnancy...yuck - wish DG had been in control of season4 rather than JW - that season left a bad taste in the mouth. I think JW jumped the shark/went powertrip mad without DG, and the buffyverse was damaged.

Edit

Oooh, I got the most important relationship now, David Greenwalt and Joss Wheldon

 

[Avalith]

I'm not sure I like the stance that when someone dies that relationship has lost it's importance...but irregardless, I'll toss in my little opinions.

I think Buffy put it best when she said she was still baking, she isn't ready to settle with someone right now. Plus, I'm sorry to say this, but I don't think these Mayfly-December romances with the brooding dead are a good idea. I don't think she's found someone right for her yet.

As for Willow, her being with Oz made me happy, her being with Tara made me happy. I didn't like Kennedy. I don't think it will last, Joss will see to that, but it doesn't seem like its nearly as much of an emotional relationship as the other too were, more just physical.

Xander and Anya. While the whole little thing with Cordy was funny, it wasn't anything serious, just a highschool thing. What he had with Anya was real, I hear he's with someone new in Season 8, and didn't go through any sort of grief process, which strikes me as odd.

I liked Spike with Dru more then I did him with Buffy, pretty important relationship that, same with Angel and Darla. While obviously, Angel and Darla is dead and gone, it was still important, but I digress.

I've only seen a Season and a half of Angel, so I'm not really in a position to discuss what goes on there. Sorry.