The role of Fate in Btvs and AtS

[AnthonyCordova]

The thought that the Buffy-verse is dominated by fate/determinism has occurred to me many times as I've been watching Btvs/Ats from the beginning. When I think about it, very little that happens seems like the result of chance. Things kind of fall into place a little too neatly. This is not a criticism by the way. I sometimes feel as if life in general is subject to a large degree of determinism too.

The circumstances of how everyone in the scooby gang meet (and how their relationships develop among each other) seems colored by fate. And a lot of the way conflicts resolve also seem as if they couldn't happen any other way afterwards. Sure, it's just a fictional world, but most television shows and books I've experienced never strike me this way. It just seems like fate helps explain a lot in the Buffy-verse.

I'm sorry I'm not using specific examples (although I think I could offer many with some time). I'll try to come back with some later. I also want to organize my thoughts a little bit more about this too. In the meanwhile, I'd like to open up the discussion to the rest of you.

So what do you think?

 

[AnthonyCordova]

And I should also add real fast that I mean fate beyond the obvious (that destiny chose Buffy to be the slayer). I mean, I think that Willow, Xander, Giles, nearly everyone of significance in Buffy's life also seem to be involved in Buffy's life due to fate. I mean honestly, who else at Sunnydale High would have been in the slightest bit helpful (or rather, necessary) in aiding Buffy as the slayer? That's just one example. And I also mean fate in the sense that it shows itself at work in what they do, in how they solve problems and overcome difficulties, etc.

And, as an aside, it also makes me think of how art imitates life (and as Oscar Wilde said, life imitates art). In a sense, I see some validation in Btvs for, to some degree, determinism in life itself. I personally don't think our lives are completely determined (and that's a completely different conversation) but I do feel that, to a degree, our lives are determined in some sense. Freedom and Determinism mix together in our lives and in the world at large. And in another sense, they both kind of mean the same thing, they are the same thing, like two sides to one coin, or how light can only be defined by its opposite, darkness. But now I'm really getting carried away from the original question so, I'll stop right now.

 

[Xin Rong]

I don't think there is such a thing as fate, per se, in the Buffyverse. There are occasionally higher beings that manipulate events, but in general I think the show goes along the 'the future is predetermined by the character of those who shape it' idea of fate, rather than things happen because they were always supposed to.

Look at the prophecies that are constantly disproved/undermined in the show, which I think shows its lack of faith in fate.

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't think that BtVS is deterministic. Various powers try to manipulate the characters and influence them but Scoobies still make their own decisions. Saying that, I do think that characters do not fight hard enough for their own destiny - they are OK with being used and manipulated most of the time.

Buffy does nothing to reverse the monks' spell, she doesn't even want that, that's just completely crazy. Giles becomes a watcher because what, his dad tells him to do it? What, is this guy twelve or something? Willow comes back to Sunnydale and keeps using magic despite the consequences because it's what, a part of her? Xander and Anya stay in slayer-free Sunnydale, why? That's just nuts. Angel atones for things he did not do. Bonkers. It's not fate. It's weakness, it's lameness with a bit of crazy.

On the other hand...crazy theory time. In "Teacher's Pet" Giles gives away an interpretation clue ( Dr. Ferris Carlyle spent years transcribing a lost pre-Germanic language. What he discovered he kept to himself until several teenage boys were murdered in the Cotswolds. Then he went hunting for it (...) Uh, he calls her a She-Mantis. This type of creature, the Kleptes-Virgo, or, or virgin-thief, appears in, in many cultures. The Greek sirens, the Celtic sea maidens, who, who tore the living flesh from the bones of, um... ) Basically, demons, monsters and such are actually mythological creatures. So why wouldn't that apply to Scoobies as well? Gods that walk the earth, aspects of some or other deity etc, etc, there's quite a bit of weird mythological references surrounding the core four. And free will? That's mostly a human thing.

 

[Blaze]

This is an interesting question, but not one that can exactly be answered. One thing that I love about Buffy is that they created that entire mythology without ever including actual words on the topics of religion and faith (I know this is only loosely related to fate, but I think it sort of applied to the topic in a broader sense) . I agree with [MENTION=5421]Xin Rong[/MENTION], they try to make it very clear that actual fate doesn't exist in the verse, at least from what we saw with the characters and their prophesies that keep turning out to be false. Or maybe fate does and only certain events are changed, but we know for sure that events can be changed.

I don't fallow the comics very closely, but even there it seems like they might be changing the Fray future, but of course that isn't set in stone. If you look at "I Will Remember You", Angel is able to change his fate, and than you have the prophesies that aren't even set in stone, like the Sanshu.

If we consider that other events are all caused by fate, than who is to say that our whole life is not just fate. It's the same principle I guess. Like how did Willow, a soon to be powerful witch met with the slayer. Or is it meeting with the slayer that caused her to become a powerful witch. Is it fate, or coincidence. To be honest, I've had weirder coincidence happen in the real world, does that mean that my life is just going as planned? Those are questions that can't be answered, partially because they are just beliefs. At least from BtVS, it is stated that fate can be somewhat changed if it does indeed exists. But again, aside from prophesies, the writer's never really hinted at fate being the reason for everything.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

but in general I think the show goes along the 'the future is predetermined by the character of those who shape it' idea of fate, rather than things happen because they were always supposed to.

Look at the prophecies that are constantly disproved/undermined in the show, which I think shows its lack of faith in fate.

What do you mean exactly by "the future is predetermined by the character of those who shape it idea of fate"? I'm just curious.

I'm still working through all of Btvs, but I don't agree that all of the prophecies get disproved. I'm recalling the prophecies surrounding the Anointed One and the Slayer from Season One. Both The Master and Giles' interpretations come true (although in Giles case he originally misunderstood who the Anointed One was). The part about the number of people who would get killed (from which the Anointed One would come), the part about the Slayer that says she "will not know him, will not stop him, and he will lead her into hell" (the anointed one) All of that came true exactly. And the part of the prophecies that Giles and Angel wanted originally hide from her, the part about the slayer dying, that also came true. She was brought back to life again, but she did originally die.

Maybe other prophecies I've yet to get to in the show don't come true at all, and I'll just have to see myself when I get to them. But maybe certain important elements come true? Maybe prophecies in the Buffy-verse suffer from what seers from certain parts of this world explain as a problem: that their visions of the future always come mixed in with untruth or maybe come incomplete or are subject to some interpretation or maybe some parts are more determined than other parts.

Anyway, maybe I kind of over-stated things when I said in the original post that I thought very little in the Buffy-verse seemed to be the result of chance. But maybe it might be fair to say that fate/determinism have a definite and consistent presence in the show at least, like the prophecies about the Anointed One from Season 1.

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

If we consider that other events are all caused by fate, than who is to say that our whole life is not just fate. It's the same principle I guess. Like how did Willow, a soon to be powerful witch met with the slayer. Or is it meeting with the slayer that caused her to become a powerful witch. Is it fate, or coincidence.

That's what really gets me about the show, it's determinism at this level. (The prophecies and such are a different thing for me). I tend to feel the determinism most when it comes to the different important characters that help Buffy in her life along the way. It's because it seems impossible to imagine anyone else being capable of providing their specific skills, services and qualities and because, at some point or other, it feels as if what they contribute really needed to be contributed (especially at certain really important moments). Some things seem like they couldn't be resolved any other way. What was needed was exactly what they had and could do.

I don't know, I'm sorry everyone, maybe I'm projecting my private interests of determinism into the show too much. You know, because someone thinks about something so much, they suddenly see evidence for it everywhere. Maybe that's my problem.

 

[thetopher]

I think what Whistler says in S2 is interesting, he lays it out fairly clearly. That some things are meant to happen, they're like plot points (The Anoited One rising, Buffy's death- and therefore the two slayers that came after her..., Acathla, Shanshu), but we still have choices, how we react to these fixed points. There is free will as a counteracting force.
Throw in the manipulations of evil masterminds/ higher beings- W&H, Sajhane,(?) Jasmine, even Whistler himself, and you get all sorts of questions.

Obviously destiny is a force, but if Buffy had a destiny in S8, then she wasn't meant to die permenantly at the end of S5, somebody was always meant to bring her back. Was it always going to be Willow? Or somebody else. This also meant that the First was always going to make its move then in S7, when there was an opening, and the slayer line would either be wiped out, or the empowerment spell would make a whole lot more...And on and on it goes.

Predeterminism is a fascinating philosophy that the show touches upon but doesn't answer (I'm not sure it could), a lot of shows wouldn't go near the question, or they'd give a definitive answer. (like for example Alias, yes Alias, believes in fate/destiny, the whole Rambaldi thing.)
I like that Buffy raises the question and then leaves it up to the viewer, its why we have these boards years after the shows end. 🙂

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION]

It's because it seems impossible to imagine anyone else being capable of providing their specific skills, services and qualities at some point or other

I disagree with that. I don't think that any of the core characters is irreplaceable because of their skills or qualities, all of them have potential substitutes on the show: Giles -> Wesley, Willow -> Amy/Tara, Buffy -> Faith/Kendra, Xander -> Andrew/Jonathan/Spike. Scoobies are replaced by White Hats in "The Wish" after all and the world does not end.

 

[Kean]

Scoobies are replaced by White Hats in "The Wish" after all and the world does not end.

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment that others could be found to take the Scoobies place but "The Wish" does more to disprove that theory than anything. That world is significantly more awful without Buffy and the Scoobies in it as a team.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I get the impression that knowledge can prevent some of the predetermined things from happening. When Buffy meets the Anointed One, unlike the statement in the prophecy, she knows who he is. She follows him, but this does not change the fact that she was predicted to not know him.

Some events do not seem to be predetermined. Was Fred always going to go to Pylea? Was she destined to die and be replaced by Illyria?

Did the Shanshu prophecy ever get settled? We see nothing to indicate that it would happen or even who it would happen to.

Predictions do not always equate to determinism. I could predict that my stock market holdings would do well, but this is not the same as them actually doing well. Nor does it prevent a prediction from being wrong - there are examples of predictions that do not materialize and others that happen as predicted but not due to any cause and effect - in I Will Remember You, Buffy will die if Angel regains humanity according to a prediction so he rejects humanity but

Spoiler

she dies anyway

.

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=12171]Ethan Reigns[/MENTION], careful about the last line, pretty sure AnthonyCordova doesn't know about this spoiler yet. But yes, I agree with what you said!

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Predictions do not always equate to determinism. I could predict that my stock market holdings would do well, but this is not the same as them actually doing well. Nor does it prevent a prediction from being wrong - there are examples of predictions that do not materialize and others that happen as predicted but not due to any cause and effect

You bring up good points here to keep in mind. But some of the Buffy/Angel prophecies (like the Anointed One prophecy) seem pretty specific. It wasn't just a vague prediction like "your stock will do well soon" but more like "your stock will reach this level first, then fall to this specific level afterwards". I don't know...anyway

I just noticed the spoiler but miraculously I passed over it quickly and now I can't remember. Someone died (?) LoL I can't remember

 

[Blaze]

That's what really gets me about the show, it's determinism at this level. (The prophecies and such are a different thing for me). I tend to feel the determinism most when it comes to the different important characters that help Buffy in her life along the way. It's because it seems impossible to imagine anyone else being capable of providing their specific skills, services and qualities and because, at some point or other, it feels as if what they contribute really needed to be contributed (especially at certain really important moments). Some things seem like they couldn't be resolved any other way. What was needed was exactly what they had and could do.

I don't know, I'm sorry everyone, maybe I'm projecting my private interests of determinism into the show too much. You know, because someone thinks about something so much, they suddenly see evidence for it everywhere. Maybe that's my problem.

I'm not very familiar with determinism, but I think in the case of BtVS, what is so great about it is that a lot of theories can be applied to the show. Whether this was done on purpose or not is irrelevant, but your point of view is logical. I just don't think I agree. Both Evil UU and Kean brought good ideas to the table. A lot of what happens is not necessarily something that can only be done by one character, but we do see that the world is better when it is done by them. The wish also shows that at least alternate realities are possible, and this is supported by Doppelgangland where we know that connections between realities is also possible. I'm not sure whether this supports determinism or not, but I do think that things are not set in stone. People definitely play with the future at times in BtVS. I'd go as far as saying that the world is set by some of the characters, and not the other way around. Like the world doesn't predetermine the fate of the Scoobies, but the Scoobies predetermine the fate of the world.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I don't think fate or freedom exist as absolutes. There is a certain degree of both. One implies the other. You can't make sense of one without the other. Society, upbringing, genes, etc. a lot of things kind of determine you in certain ways, yet you still have an experience of free choice that seems to be very real too, and other things that seem to imply proper freedom.

Now, when I think about the Buffy-verse, I kind of like the way thetopher put it. There seem to be a lot of "fixed points" that seem unchangeable, but the events and everything surrounding these points, preceding them and following them, seem maleable and yet-to-be-determined. I kind of like that way of putting it.