The Sad Truth

[GwenRaiden]

overspend with their credit cards (all of them) and then are shocked when their debt gets out of control

Never had one. Never been in debt. But had to bail out the bankers anyway, didn't I.

People is poor countries and in rich countries, in positions of power, will abuse the system if they feel they can get away with it.

The biggest abuses come from positions of power, so therefore rich people. Eg. Setting up offshore banking accounts to save millions in tax, tax that could help reshape this country -- tax that everyone else has to pay, or else.

Objects becoming oh so important. More so than people.

I think you can still have "things" and care about your fellow man. People can read between the lines and see the bullshit. My family has been involved in activism for as long as I can remember -- technology has became a vital part of protesting nowadays -- using the internet to arrange times and places to gather, getting word out about the injustices and changing opinions, making people aware and want to come along. That's my only positive about advanced technology. People are very surprised when they hear just how many people a year are dying due to welfare reforms -- it makes them want to hit the streets believe it or not, especially those whose family members have died as a result.

The reason people don't accept that is because, thanks to 24 hr news, we hear about every bad thing in the world EVER. Every catastrophe, every problem, every possible threat, every thing that 'could possibly be bad for you' is now news and its on every single day.

I don't watch the news nor read newspapers. And I don't accept an "overall better quality of life" -- for who? No one around me. No one I know. The Dickensian/Victorian era sounds like luxury to a few folks I know.

 

[Mr Trick]

Yeah @thetopher Sorry but I'm with Gwen on this one.

Firstly to say that EVERYONE is responsible for the way world is, is a big over statement. A lot of people are, but I still think that most people are just trying to live their lives as best they can under a system which they have very little say over.

The thing on the debt is sometimes can't be avoided. I agree that some people are just silly with their money and that is their choice. But its not those people who have gotten this country into a mess, it is the people running the country. And also as a student I didn't really have a choice but to run up debt because it is such an expenisve and unless you can get a job (also not easy) then the best you can do is to try and keep the debt down.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

After watching 'Mad Men' I'm actually convinced that we could seriously put a dent in world wide depression epidemic if we got rid of all advertising. You just get to see how this sort of legalized lying started to corrupt people's outlook on things. Objects becoming oh so important. More so than people.

Well, not to go off on a tangent but that's because you watched Mad Men. All of these socially important changes people want done, advertising brings them to the fore.
Here's some more examples of advertising. Mad Men was focused, primarily, on sales advertising.

As someone whose made their living in the "legalized lying" profession for the last 18 years I find your comment offensive (but I understand why you think that way), as you are only looking and judging based on one small subset. What about all of the advertising Greenpeace and WWF does? Advertising can, does and will create positive change. And the advertising landscape has changed tremendously from the time I got involved. To say its part of the "world wide depression epidemic" because you watched a dramatic TV show about advertising in the 60s is failing to see the good that advertising can, and does, do. But again, no one really likes to talk about the good... just the bad, evil advertising execs.

I will now step off my soap box..

 

[Blaze]

@thetopher I agree with some of your post, to an extent, but one big thing I disagree with is when people discuss depression as a result of advertising and consumption. I'm depressed cause my brain doesn't work properly. It has nothing to do with advertisement and the type of lifestyle I lead (and if it did, well I lead a lifestile as far away as you can get from a materialistic person. I grew up on the country side on a farm, and my aspirations in life have nothing to do with the gain of objects).

 

[Mr Trick]

Well, not to go off on a tangent but that's because you watched Mad Men. All of these socially important changes people want done, advertising brings them to the fore.
Here's some more examples of advertising. Mad Men was focused, primarily, on sales advertising.

As someone whose made their living in the "legalized lying" profession for the last 18 years I find your comment offensive (but I understand why you think that way), as you are only looking and judging based on one small subset. What about all of the advertising Greenpeace and WWF does? Advertising can, does and will create positive change. And the advertising landscape has changed tremendously from the time I got involved. To say its part of the "world wide depression epidemic" because you watched a dramatic TV show about advertising in the 60s is failing to see the good that advertising can, and does, do. But again, no one really likes to talk about the good... just the bad, evil advertising execs.

I will now step off my soap box..

I disagree though because when you see some of the mad (pun not intended) things which are created more so now its clear that no one is ever going to buy them, and also the fact is that quite often this sales ideas are based on what the suits believe that people want, and yes sometimes they are right, but not always. So I don't go along with the argument that these products are just invented to fill a human need all that they are vital to progress.

 

[thetopher]

Never had one. Never been in debt. But had to bail out the bankers anyway, didn't I.

It's great that you didn't rely on free credit but a lot of people did. People got 'given' houses they couldn't afford- 90% mortgage's (through the sub-prime mortgage debacle) or over-maxed their half-dozen credit cards. Then they were shocked when the bottom fell out of the economy and their house got foreclosed on.

The biggest abuses come from positions of power, so therefore rich people.

So they get all the blame? I'm sorry but that seems like passing the buck from where I see. People are responsible for their own lives and decisions. We are responsible for the society we create. We can change it, we can make it better or worse.

Like that Cecil the lion thing- everybody got so angry with the rich, white dentist and up in arms about what he did that they ignored the bigger picture. There are other forces at play. Legalized poaching/hunting in a massive industry in lot of these African countries and that was never addressed

I applaud activism and the way the modern age is helping with that (in other words making it a more effective tool than at any other time in the past) but you still have idiotic mouth pieces who don't grasp the issues and telling people not to vote. *Russell Brand for example*
Stop listening to them and people would be better off.

I don't watch the news nor read newspapers. And I don't accept an "overall better quality of life" -- for who? No one around me. No one I know. The Dickensian/Victorian era sounds like luxury to a few folks I know.

As a historian I can say that no, you wouldn't be better off if you got sent to the Poor house (with your kids taken away from you), to work pretty much as a slave for nothing and die at the age of 35-40- that is the Victorian welfare state. No exceptions to any poor folk, no tax breaks, no dole money, no child welfare.

Also, as I have said, if you're an orphan, a minority, disabled, etc- you are still a lot better off in the modern age than at any other point in history. Is it perfect? Far from it, but people need to get a bit of perspective and stop romanticizing about the past.

The past was, for the most part, horrible unless you were well-off white man, and even then the Irish didn't fair that well.

Firstly to say that EVERYONE is responsible for the way world is, is a big over statement.

Well, its no bigger than saying that in the modern world this is the worst we've ever had it.
I would say that the majority of people are responsible for the current (western) mess, and they are the ones who can fix it if they get a clue in their head.
Example-If you are fat then you are at fault, not society or industry for putting too much sugar in your soft drink. You buy he drink, you drink the drink.

A lot of people are, but I still think that most people are just trying to live their lives as best they can under a system which they have very little say over.

I'd agree, if you don't live in a democracy then you're more unfortunate than most. These cartoons aren't about that- they are about the state of modern, western society- democracies. Everyone who can vote has a say.

The thing on the debt is sometimes can't be avoided. I agree that some people are just silly with their money and that is their choice. But its not those people who have gotten this country into a mess, it is the people running the country.

Yes, sometimes. But again, people owning half a dozen credit cards and houses they can't afford is entirely avoidable and that is how economic ruin started- cheap credit and people being unable to resist cheap credit. The point isn't that they are the ONLY ones to blame- the banks and government policies are too- the point is that they are ignored so people an label a GROUP as the ones to blame.

As someone whose made their living in the "legalized lying" profession for the last 18 years I find your comment offensive (but I understand why you think that way), as you are only looking and judging based on one small subset.

As somebody who has also worked in advertising (albeit for only two years) I can tell you that this 'one small subset', has its paws everywhere- television, newspapers, the net, has an awful lot of reach and influence. They bombard people/children constantly with this thing or that thing that you must want because it will make you happy. That is the lie I was referring to.
Charities/activism advertising, in my opinion, does not saturate the market as much as actual 'sales' advertising. It is not as pervasive or effective either.

I'm depressed cause my brain doesn't work properly.

Obviously I wasn't referring to actual clinical depression/mental illness- of course that is real- but to the more the pervasive 'things have never been worse/I am so unhappy/why am I miserable?' attitude of a lot of people.
There has to be a reason why suicides are on the rise and yet quality of life overall has improved.

 

[Taake]

Like that Cecil the lion thing- everybody got so angry with the rich, white dentist and up in arms about what he did that they ignored the bigger picture. There are other forces at play. Legalized poaching/hunting in a massive industry in lot of these African countries and that was never addressed

From where I'm sitting this was very much adressed and is still being addressed with increased penalties to boot. There interest has no ceased, and this industry is definitely under attack right now, but maybe that depends on where you're looking?

As a historian I can say...

You're a historian? (not an attack, just a question.)

The past was, for the most part, horrible unless you were well-off white man, and even then the Irish didn't fair that well.

Everyone who can vote has a say.

...but to the more the pervasive 'things have never been worse/I am so unhappy/why am I miserable?' attitude of a lot of people.
There has to be a reason why suicides are on the rise and yet quality of life overall has improved.

[/QUOTE]

If you were a historian I think you would agree that these are extremely simplified broadstrokes, bordering on the naive.
Let's just be frank that all cultures and times are nuanced and complex. Politics are nuanced and complex. Unless you have direct democracy, it's not so easy as saying "everyone who can vote has a say". Everyone who can vote, can attempt to influence political decisions, but that is not the same as having an actual say in the end.



But honestly, what's spinning up this discussion is reactions to cartoons that are caricatures.

A representation, especially pictorial or literary, in which the subject's distinctive features or peculiarities are deliberately exaggerated to produce a comic or grotesque effect.

It's not the literal truth. It is an over exaggeration of how the artist views current problems of our society. And just because they're not the same problems people have had in the past, doesn't necessarily make them better.

 

[Mr Trick]

It's great that you didn't rely on free credit but a lot of people did. People got 'given' houses they couldn't afford- 90% mortgage's (through the sub-prime mortgage debacle) or over-maxed their half-dozen credit cards. Then they were shocked when the bottom fell out of the economy and their house got foreclosed on.



So they get all the blame? I'm sorry but that seems like passing the buck from where I see. People are responsible for their own lives and decisions. We are responsible for the society we create. We can change it, we can make it better or worse.

Like that Cecil the lion thing- everybody got so angry with the rich, white dentist and up in arms about what he did that they ignored the bigger picture. There are other forces at play. Legalized poaching/hunting in a massive industry in lot of these African countries and that was never addressed

I applaud activism and the way the modern age is helping with that (in other words making it a more effective tool than at any other time in the past) but you still have idiotic mouth pieces who don't grasp the issues and telling people not to vote. *Russell Brand for example*
Stop listening to them and people would be better off.



As a historian I can say that no, you wouldn't be better off if you got sent to the Poor house (with your kids taken away from you), to work pretty much as a slave for nothing and die at the age of 35-40- that is the Victorian welfare state. No exceptions to any poor folk, no tax breaks, no dole money, no child welfare.

Also, as I have said, if you're an orphan, a minority, disabled, etc- you are still a lot better off in the modern age than at any other point in history. Is it perfect? Far from it, but people need to get a bit of perspective and stop romanticizing about the past.

The past was, for the most part, horrible unless you were well-off white man, and even then the Irish didn't fair that well.



Well, its no bigger than saying that in the modern world this is the worst we've ever had it.
I would say that the majority of people are responsible for the current (western) mess, and they are the ones who can fix it if they get a clue in their head.
Example-If you are fat then you are at fault, not society or industry for putting too much sugar in your soft drink. You buy he drink, you drink the drink.



I'd agree, if you don't live in a democracy then you're more unfortunate than most. These cartoons aren't about that- they are about the state of modern, western society- democracies. Everyone who can vote has a say.



Yes, sometimes. But again, people owning half a dozen credit cards and houses they can't afford is entirely avoidable and that is how economic ruin started- cheap credit and people being unable to resist cheap credit. The point isn't that they are the ONLY ones to blame- the banks and government policies are too- the point is that they are ignored so people an label a GROUP as the ones to blame.



As somebody who has also worked in advertising (albeit for only two years) I can tell you that this 'one small subset', has its paws everywhere- television, newspapers, the net, has an awful lot of reach and influence. They bombard people/children constantly with this thing or that thing that you must want because it will make you happy. That is the lie I was referring to.
Charities/activism advertising, in my opinion, does not saturate the market as much as actual 'sales' advertising. It is not as pervasive or effective either.



Obviously I wasn't referring to actual clinical depression/mental illness- of course that is real- but to the more the pervasive 'things have never been worse/I am so unhappy/why am I miserable?' attitude of a lot of people.
There has to be a reason why suicides are on the rise and yet quality of life overall has improved.

The fat one is a very basic example though and I agree that there isn't really any reason to pass the buck on that one. But the pros and cons of the current capitalist system and whether we are to blame for it, or if we have much control over it is a very different and more complex issue.

Yes, everyone has a vote, but there are certain issues with that system too which have been discussed on here before. I personally think that a lot of people are guilty in not using their vote properly, but that's a different issue. The thing is once a party is in power then you have five years of them and there is very little you can do if you don't like their policies during that time.

You have a point on the credit card issue and there is a lot of blame on us too, but again when you look at how aggressive loan companies have become, and how they target people that are in debt and don't care that they are just going to get them into debt, then it is all part of an ugly system. I agree with some of what your saying, because I don't think we should treat people like their passive and can't think for themselves, but sometimes when people through no fault of their own have been put in a bad situation then it can be hard to say no.

 

[GwenRaiden]

On topic but off in another direction, how good does Dismaland look? -
http://www.channel4.com/news/dismaland-banksy-bemusement-park-shocking-funny-extraordinary

 

[thetopher]

Let's just be frank that all cultures and times are nuanced and complex. Politics are nuanced and complex. Unless you have direct democracy, it's not so easy as saying "everyone who can vote has a say". Everyone who can vote, can attempt to influence political decisions, but that is not the same as having an actual say in the end.

I'm referring to what the cartoons are referring to- Western Democracies. Other countries of course have their own problems - different, more extreme and far more complex, which aren't covered here- I should've made that a bit clearer.
And the sad truth is less and less people are voting in general elections (not just in the UK but elsewhere) - their abdicating their own futures.

You're a historian? (not an attack, just a question.)

Oh, I only meant that I did a Masters in History and I read lots of history books but its not my job, just a hobby/sphere of interest. It's why I used a small 'h'- not a professional here.


I genuinely thought that's what these cartoons were pointing out- that we are slaves to circumstances of our own making. I think that's why I liked some of them, thought they were reasonably clever (although you'll find similar type drawings in The Guardian newspaper).

Yeah, I would never go and visit 'dismal land'. I have a low enough opinion of humanity as it is.