The Scoobies and Buffy

[citiegal17]

You and I have pretty much exact opposite views on this. I just recently rewatched DMP and Revelations, and I was actually yelling at the t.v. I could not believe that they had the audacity to attack Buffy because, poor them, chose to step into her shoes for a summer. I was like, "yeah, yell at her because your life had to suck like hers for a bit..." And then when everyone was attacking her in Revelations (i think that's the title), I was thinking how amazing it is that Buffy didn't just snap at some point and knock one of them out or just take off and let them fend for themselves. They were treating her like she was their own personal, paid bodyguard or something. I am not a Bangel in any sense, but I understood her actions there. Yes, as a "superhero" type at least part of you belongs to the world, in that Buffy is the protector, but at this point there was another slayer around. I very much sympathize with Buffy here.

Buffy was acting immature and refused to let anyone help her, and she abandoned her friends for months and they didn't know where she was or if she was dead or alive, so that I think gives the scoobies, Giles and Joyce legitmate reasons to be angry with her. There her friends not her minons they don't have to agree with everything she does and have a right to get angry with her for abandon them like she did in season 2. Honestly just because Buffy is the slayer does not give her the okay to disregard her friends and family. She even tried to run away again if my friend ran away for months without telling me where they were or what happened to them and then tried to run away again I'd be pissed. Buffy didn't attempt to talk to anyone about her problems so its not the scoobies fault if they wouldn't understand if she doesn't even attempt to talk to them. I think Buffy takes the scoobies for granted sometimes and you can't exactly blame the scoobies when they react to this, not to mention her superiority complex which showed Buffy at her worse in season 7, and the insufferable talk about Spike only watching her back, when the scoobies were trying to help her all season and she basically refused it.

 

[KellGreen]

Buffy was acting immature and refused to let anyone help her, and she abandoned her friends for months and they didn't know where she was or if she was dead or alive, so that I think gives the scoobies, Giles and Joyce legitmate reasons to be angry with her. There her friends not her minons they don't have to agree with everything she does and have a right to get angry with her for abandon them like she did in season 2. Honestly just because Buffy is the slayer does not give her the okay to disregard her friends and family. She even tried to run away again if my friend ran away for months without telling me where they were or what happened to them and then tried to run away again I'd be pissed. Buffy didn't attempt to talk to anyone about her problems so its not the scoobies fault if they wouldn't understand if she doesn't even attempt to talk to them. I think Buffy takes the scoobies for granted sometimes and you can't exactly blame the scoobies when they react to this, not to mention her superiority complex which showed Buffy at her worse in season 7, and the insufferable talk about Spike only watching her back, when the scoobies were trying to help her all season and she basically refused it.

But they should have understood, in very least due to their stated dislike of choosing to cover her slayer duties while she was gone. They complained how unfair it was for them; how could they in any way realistically not realize how difficult it was for her everday? Beyond that, they are not her children and she does not have an obligation to do anything (beyond her slayer duties, of course). She did try to talk to Willow at least, but she (Willow) kept not engaging with Buffy. I don't think Buffy takes them for granted. If nothing else, she is made to understand numerous times throughout the show that it is their presence in her life that has kept her alive (or resurrected) as long as she has been. It is NOT a superiority complex. At the end of the day she is the one responsible for saving the world and all; if she fails, it is on HER, not them. They don't have to pay the same price she does for most of the series. She tries to protect them and keep them distanced from her in an attempt to prevent what is aimed at her from spreading to them; as happens when Tara gets shot from Warren shooting at Buffy. I perceive her as going out of her way to try to shield them; to me, that is why she keeps them cut off a bit (well, that and the discussion her & Faith have about their duties as slayer). It may not be the best thing, but she means well. Also, I have to say that my head would be pretty screwed up too if i had had to kill the man i was in love with. The more i try to step inside the show and really imagine what each of the characters are feeling and how i would handle/react to the things they deal with, i see it all in a different light.

 

[PassionBecoming]

The Scoobies' relationships are all over the place. I feel like they just aren't sure how the Slayer/Non-slayer interaction is supposed to work. In some eps, I think it was "No Place Like Home") Xander says something about Buffy and Riley never relaxing, and Willows says that's why they're the heroes and we're the side-kicks. On the flip-side, Xander is always insecure and unsure of himself for not having powers, and Willow has told Buffy, "I'm not just your sidekick" amongst other things. It just depends on the moment.

It has been said numerous times in the series that Buffy's ties to the world have kept her alive longer than the average slayer. There is no doubt that the Scoobies have helped her in her mission and that they all truly care for her. Does having the support make her a "better" slayer? Depends on what you consider better - it made her more caring, loving, and want to live. Until she burnt out and quit caring, loving, and wanting to live.

A Slayer was not meant to have friends and family or ties to the world, which is why I think the dynamic between the Scoobies is so all over the place.

 

[citiegal17]

But they should have understood, in very least due to their stated dislike of choosing to cover her slayer duties while she was gone. They complained how unfair it was for them; how could they in any way realistically not realize how difficult it was for her everday? Beyond that, they are not her children and she does not have an obligation to do anything (beyond her slayer duties, of course). She did try to talk to Willow at least, but she (Willow) kept not engaging with Buffy. I don't think Buffy takes them for granted. If nothing else, she is made to understand numerous times throughout the show that it is their presence in her life that has kept her alive (or resurrected) as long as she has been. It is NOT a superiority complex. At the end of the day she is the one responsible for saving the world and all; if she fails, it is on HER, not them. They don't have to pay the same price she does for most of the series. She tries to protect them and keep them distanced from her in an attempt to prevent what is aimed at her from spreading to them; as happens when Tara gets shot from Warren shooting at Buffy. I perceive her as going out of her way to try to shield them; to me, that is why she keeps them cut off a bit (well, that and the discussion her & Faith have about their duties as slayer). It may not be the best thing, but she means well. Also, I have to say that my head would be pretty screwed up too if i had had to kill the man i was in love with. The more i try to step inside the show and really imagine what each of the characters are feeling and how i would handle/react to the things they deal with, i see it all in a different light.

Buffy explicity says she has a superiority complex in season 7 so its spelled out to be one in the show by Buffy herself. The entire world paid the price not to mention Willow when Buffy saved the world in season 8 so its untrue that her saving the world doesn't affect them. If Buffy wouldn't talk to them how exactly should they have understood by reading her mind them? Sorry if she won't talk it comes off wrong to say they wouldn't understand if she doesn't even try to talk to them in DMP. Buffy has an obligation as their friend to let them know where she is, what happened and whether she is alive or dead, and their not her minons. Friendship is a two way street, and her being a slayer doesn't change that.

 

[KellGreen]

Buffy explicity says she has a superiority complex in season 7 so its spelled out to be one in the show by Buffy herself. The entire world paid the price not to mention Willow when Buffy saved the world in season 8 so its untrue that her saving the world doesn't affect them. If Buffy wouldn't talk to them how exactly should they have understood by reading her mind them? Sorry if she won't talk it comes off wrong to say they wouldn't understand if she doesn't even try to talk to them in DMP. Buffy has an obligation as their friend to let them know where she is, what happened and whether she is alive or dead, and their not her minons. Friendship is a two way street, and her being a slayer doesn't change that.

Maybe by S7 she does, but throughout, i just don't see it. Additionally, what i said was that in DMP we see Buffy trying to talk to Willow, but she doesn't engage in the conversation with Buffy. Yes, friendship is a two way street; it shouldn't judge to the extent they did and it sure as hell shouldn't include grouping up and verbally attacking someone and only making up after she's saved your butts again. Furthermore, you must remember that they do not know what we, as the audience, do. Before Buffy had to kill Angel, remember what Xander said to her. Also, this is how Buffy deals with intense emotional pain. Some people drink, some go power hunger, and she emotionally shuts off. Anyone who has lost someone close to them knows the intense and seemingly undending pain that that accompanies this; now imagine you were the cause... She felt completely shut out of her world at the end of S2: her mom telling her not to come back, being kicked out of school, etc., I don't think it was the best decision she made to leave, but I can completely empathise with her pain and the reason she made that decision. She isn't given a chance to grieve at other times, because everyone is always requiring so much from her, she doesn't get to recouperate emotionally. The emotional load Buffy has to carry far exceeds that of the other Scoobies, but they don't see that. So, I still disagree quite adamantly.

 

[citiegal17]

Maybe by S7 she does, but throughout, i just don't see it. Additionally, what i said was that in DMP we see Buffy trying to talk to Willow, but she doesn't engage in the conversation with Buffy. Yes, friendship is a two way street; it shouldn't judge to the extent they did and it sure as hell shouldn't include grouping up and verbally attacking someone and only making up after she's saved your butts again. Furthermore, you must remember that they do not know what we, as the audience, do. Before Buffy had to kill Angel, remember what Xander said to her. Also, this is how Buffy deals with intense emotional pain. Some people drink, some go power hunger, and she emotionally shuts off. Anyone who has lost someone close to them knows the intense and seemingly undending pain that that accompanies this; now imagine you were the cause... She felt completely shut out of her world at the end of S2: her mom telling her not to come back, being kicked out of school, etc., I don't think it was the best decision she made to leave, but I can completely empathise with her pain and the reason she made that decision. She isn't given a chance to grieve at other times, because everyone is always requiring so much from her, she doesn't get to recouperate emotionally. The emotional load Buffy has to carry far exceeds that of the other Scoobies, but they don't see that. So, I still disagree quite adamantly.

Well I sympthasize with everyone in DMP, but the fact is Buffy refuses to talk to anyone in DMP, so unless their suppost to read her mind there is no way she can complain that they don't understand if she refuses to talk to them, which they all tried to do.Her mother may have told her not to come back but she did in the heat of the moment which means she didn't actually mean it when she said it,and Joyce was perfectly justified to be upset with her leaving.Her being kicked out of school sucks but it doesn't justify running away and not letting anyone know where she was or if she was dead or alive thats just common curtesy. Buffy's friends have always tried to be there for Buffy when she needs to vent emotionally and over the years she has pulled away and held it inside till it got in the way, like it did in the Weight of the World when she refused to deal and she went into a catotonic state, and even in season 7 she pushed others away and had an unhealthy attachement to Spike which interfered with the mission. Buffy didn't even bother to tell anyone she killed Angel till Giles pratically had to get it out of her, how does she expect her friends to know about it if she doesn't even tell them, by reading her mind?

 

[KellGreen]

Well I sympthasize with everyone in DMP, but the fact is Buffy refuses to talk to anyone in DMP, so unless their suppost to read her mind there is no way she can complain that they don't understand if she refuses to talk to them, which they all tried to do.Her mother may have told her not to come back but she did in the heat of the moment which means she didn't actually mean it when she said it,and Joyce was perfectly justified to be upset with her leaving.Her being kicked out of school sucks but it doesn't justify running away and not letting anyone know where she was or if she was dead or alive thats just common curtesy. Buffy's friends have always tried to be there for Buffy when she needs to vent emotionally and over the years she has pulled away and held it inside till it got in the way, like it did in the Weight of the World when she refused to deal and she went into a catotonic state, and even in season 7 she pushed others away and had an unhealthy attachement to Spike which interfered with the mission. Buffy didn't even bother to tell anyone she killed Angel till Giles pratically had to get it out of her, how does she expect her friends to know about it if she doesn't even tell them, by reading her mind?

Yes, she specifically tries to talk to Willow, as i have already stated twice - rewatch and see...they are standing in the hallway area against the wall. So, my understanding is that your primary issue is that you don't agree with Buffy's way of processing emotional and mental pain? It is what it is, and i have my suspicions that that may be how at least a couple of the writers deal with theirs as well. Most of the time they have tried, but not always. If i am overlooking some important times they were there, please point them out to me (it's always good to have an excuse to rewatch an epi😀)
Uhm, for your S7 comment, wasn't saving the world the mission, and was not Spike the integral key in their success - you know, him sacrificing himself and all? BTW, i have not read any of the comics, so any information/occurrences there i am entirely ignorant of.

 

[citiegal17]

Yes, she specifically tries to talk to Willow, as i have already stated twice - rewatch and see...they are standing in the hallway area against the wall. So, my understanding is that your primary issue is that you don't agree with Buffy's way of processing emotional and mental pain? It is what it is, and i have my suspicions that that may be how at least a couple of the writers deal with theirs as well. Most of the time they have tried, but not always. If i am overlooking some important times they were there, please point them out to me (it's always good to have an excuse to rewatch an epi😀)
Uhm, for your S7 comment, wasn't saving the world the mission, and was not Spike the integral key in their success - you know, him sacrificing himself and all? BTW, i have not read any of the comics, so any information/occurrences there i am entirely ignorant of.

Buffy didn't talk to Willow at all they didn't even know till way after DMP and Giles get it out of her, you've got your facts wrong,rewatch the episode again. Buffy never talked to Willow about Angel or anything till episodes way after the DMP episode, and in the episode she just says they wouldn't understand and doesn't bother to try and talk to them, instead she tries to run away again and then Willow catches her which starts the fight. Yes I don't agree running away and not dealing is not a good way to deal with emotional pain its never helped Buffy, it makes it worse when she finally does vent. Also her friends have a right to know if she is dead or alive and not to have her run away whenever she feels like it, if I had a friend that kept doing that to me are friendship would seriously be on the rocks, its common curtesy to show that much respect for a friend to let them know if your alive or dead. If anything in season 7 Spike is also part of the reason she kept pushing everyone away not helping the mission and encouraging her wreckleness with others lives like the potentionals living in the house, second of she said she let Spike threaten to kill someone and thats really ****ed up I don't care how important to the mission she thinks he is, and really its counterintutive to the mission to place a vampire's lifes over those of innocents or other human beings, not that I'm saying Spike didn't do good he did, and Wood was wrong to go attack him out of vegance but Spike had no right to attack him just because he could espcially since he had a soul.

 

[KellGreen]

Buffy didn't talk to Willow at all they didn't even know till way after DMP and Giles get it out of her, you've got your facts wrong,rewatch the episode again. Buffy never talked to Willow about Angel or anything till episodes way after the DMP episode, and in the episode she just says they wouldn't understand and doesn't bother to try and talk to them, instead she tries to run away again and then Willow catches her which starts the fight. Yes I don't agree running away and not dealing is not a good way to deal with emotional pain its never helped Buffy, it makes it worse when she finally does vent. Also her friends have a right to know if she is dead or alive and not to have her run away whenever she feels like it, if I had a friend that kept doing that to me are friendship would seriously be on the rocks, its common curtesy to show that much respect for a friend to let them know if your alive or dead. If anything in season 7 Spike is also part of the reason she kept pushing everyone away not helping the mission and encouraging her wreckleness with others lives like the potentionals living in the house, second of she said she let Spike threaten to kill someone and thats really ****ed up I don't care how important to the mission she thinks he is, and really its counterintutive to the mission to place a vampire's lifes over those of innocents or other human beings, not that I'm saying Spike didn't do good he did, and Wood was wrong to go attack him out of vegance but Spike had no right to attack him just because he could espcially since he had a soul.

No, Buffy TRIED to talk to Willow...Willow blew her off. AFTER that interaction, the one in Buffy's BR happened when Buffy was repacking. Buffy attempted to connect and was shut down. She was starting to pack again because she did not know what else to do after the interaction with Willow I keep referencing (or rather lack thereof) and what she overheard Joyce telling her new friend about how it was hard and/or worse now with Buffy back. Yes, I agree she should have let them know she was alive. Uhm...wasn't it Spike's words to Buffy after Empty Places that gave her the confidence that ended in her getting the Scythe and saving everyone else's butts...? Spike cannot possibly be considered countintuitive to the mission that his sacrifice was required for accomplishing... How, pray tell, was Spike to stop Wood and leave the premises? Wood was dead-set on revenge and had to be incapacitated (seriously can't spell today) in order for Spike to be able to leave. Wood wanted to kill him with a vengeance - literally.

 

[citiegal17]

No, Buffy TRIED to talk to Willow...Willow blew her off. AFTER that interaction, the one in Buffy's BR happened when Buffy was repacking. Buffy attempted to connect and was shut down. She was starting to pack again because she did not know what else to do after the interaction with Willow I keep referencing (or rather lack thereof) and what she overheard Joyce telling her new friend about how it was hard and/or worse now with Buffy back. Yes, I agree she should have let them know she was alive. Uhm...wasn't it Spike's words to Buffy after Empty Places that gave her the confidence that ended in her getting the Scythe and saving everyone else's butts...? Spike cannot possibly be considered countintuitive to the mission that his sacrifice was required for accomplishing... How, pray tell, was Spike to stop Wood and leave the premises? Wood was dead-set on revenge and had to be incapacitated (seriously can't spell today) in order for Spike to be able to leave. Wood wanted to kill him with a vengeance - literally.

Buffy never specifically tried to talk to Willow or anyone in DMP about Angel, it simply isn't true. Willow may have blew her off but there is no proof of what she might have talked to her about so what she might have done is not proof of anything except for what might have happened. I never denied Spike proofed to be useful but he was also a big hinderance in the mission as well, she showed poor leadership in season 7 and her unhealty relationship constantly made Buffy act irresponsible and wreckless as a leader and she jepoardized others safety because of Spike, Andrew was injured because of her blind spot towards Spike as well as Dawn. She also told Wood she would let Spike kill him which is not okay no matter how important she may feel he is towards the mission when she clearly showed signs she keep him around for personal reasons which keep interfering with her leadership. Wood was wrong to go after Spike, but Spike had no right to harm Wood espcially if were suppost to take him having a soul as a serious change, it wasn't till ATS did Spike actually learn to care about his victims which did include Wood whether he had a soul or not. I have a great deal of sympathy for Wood, Spike killed his mother, and even though he had a soul that fact didn't just go away, and I'm not saying Wood was right but Spike was not exactly in the right either. Spike did good in season 7,but he was also counterintutive to it as well since Buffy kept showing bad leadership around him, and she endangered individuals espcially when he had the first manipulating him with the trigger. Wood was not a danger to Spike when Spike and Buffy threatened him so the scene where she threatens to let Spike kill him both Spike and Buffy just plain look bad, and if Buffy is actually considering killing a human being for an undead vampire than Spike is clearly not good for the misson or Buffy. Spike saved the day but so could Angel if he decided to put on the necklace, although I'm not saying Spike wasn't heroic to do it but he wasn't neccessarily the only one who do so either.

 

[white avenger]

There have been a lot of good points made here on both sides of the argument, but I would just like to point out that, by the time that we reach Season 7, Buffy is the leader of her team. Giles, Xander, Willow, and the rest aren't her minions, they're her troops, and she is their general. Granted, they are her friends as well, but the situation that they were in required a leader, and she was the one most qualified for the task. Yes, the Scoobies were also her friends, but at that time, in the situation as it existed at that moment, that had to become a secondary factor. Just as both she and Nikki Wood stated, it's the mission that counts. Buffy was fighting the most important war of her life, She didn't have time for vendettas from Robin or insubordination from the people who had willingly accepted her hospitality and protection. Giles and the others could have walked away any time that they wanted, but Buffy never had that option. She was the Slayer. She was doing her job to the best of her ability, and that job required that she use the resources at her disposal, which included, whether they liked it or not, everyone who chose to take part in her battle. The bottom line is, the Scoobies had two choices, and two choices only. They could help, which meant following orders, even when those orders put them at risk, or they could move out, leave Sunnydale, and go somewhere that wasn't crawling with vampires, demons, Bringers, and insane killer priests. They chose to stay and help fight Buffy's war, and to be a part of Buffy's army. I find it quite ironic that, ultimately, the one person whose loyalty and support never falters is the one who should have been her enemy.

And, about her so called "superiority complex," it wasn't a complex. She actually was superior.

 

[citiegal17]

There have been a lot of good points made here on both sides of the argument, but I would just like to point out that, by the time that we reach Season 7, Buffy is the leader of her team. Giles, Xander, Willow, and the rest aren't her minions, they're her troops, and she is their general. Granted, they are her friends as well, but the situation that they were in required a leader, and she was the one most qualified for the task. Yes, the Scoobies were also her friends, but at that time, in the situation as it existed at that moment, that had to become a secondary factor. Just as both she and Nikki Wood stated, it's the mission that counts. Buffy was fighting the most important war of her life, She didn't have time for vendettas from Robin or insubordination from the people who had willingly accepted her hospitality and protection. Giles and the others could have walked away any time that they wanted, but Buffy never had that option. She was the Slayer. She was doing her job to the best of her ability, and that job required that she use the resources at her disposal, which included, whether they liked it or not, everyone who chose to take part in her battle. The bottom line is, the Scoobies had two choices, and two choices only. They could help, which meant following orders, even when those orders put them at risk, or they could move out, leave Sunnydale, and go somewhere that wasn't crawling with vampires, demons, Bringers, and insane killer priests. They chose to stay and help fight Buffy's war, and to be a part of Buffy's army. I find it quite ironic that, ultimately, the one person whose loyalty and support never falters is the one who should have been her enemy.

And, about her so called "superiority complex," it wasn't a complex. She actually was superior.

Buffy wasn't superior she thought she was superior which makes it a superiority complex, there is no proof anywhere in the show that shows Buffy as superior to anyone else anywhere. The scoobies have just as much right to speak up if Buffy was wreckless which she was in season 7, and their not her minons they have the right to get a new leader if they don't think she can handle it. Spike's loyalty to Buffy is the same as blind loyalty the scoobies never gave her that, and Buffy admits the scoobise were right to Spike btw. Buffy had nothing but dumb luck that allowed her to get the scythe or writeer fait because her plan was just as bad as her first plan that got girls killed and Xander injuried, even Faith's plan sounded better on paper because it wasn't based off a simple feeling which could possibly amount to being nothing. Leaders need the trust of their troops and Buffy lost the scoobs and potentionals trust in season 7 which is a factor in her getting kicked out and the ultimatium she made that came back to bite her in the ass, but it was ultimately her choice to leave because she refused to stay because she wouldn't be the leader anymore.Sorry leadership has to be earned, and Buffy doesn't automatically become the leader because she is the slayer, being a slayer doesn't mean one is a good leader. Also Wood may have been wrong but so were Buffy and Spike in that particular situation and Buffy feelings were clouding her judgement in season 7 Giles was right about that, even if what he did was wrong.

 

[KellGreen]

Buffy never specifically tried to talk to Willow or anyone in DMP about Angel, it simply isn't true. Willow may have blew her off but there is no proof of what she might have talked to her about so what she might have done is not proof of anything except for what might have happened..

We don't know what she is trying to talk to Willow about because she isn't given the chance to do so by Willow.

I never denied Spike proofed to be useful but he was also a big hinderance in the mission as well, she showed poor leadership in season 7 and her unhealty relationship constantly made Buffy act irresponsible and wreckless as a leader and she jepoardized others safety because of Spike, Andrew was injured because of her blind spot towards Spike as well as Dawn.

When does he hinder the mission again? Is it when he enables her to go get the scythe that, along with Spike's sacrifice allows them to win? Was it due to her miscalculation that was a trap, you know, like the one Faith subsequently led the potentials into as well?

She also told Wood she would let Spike kill him which is not okay no matter how important she may feel he is towards the mission when she clearly showed signs she keep him around for personal reasons which keep interfering with her leadership. Wood was wrong to go after Spike, but Spike had no right to harm Wood espcially if were suppost to take him having a soul as a serious change, it wasn't till ATS did Spike actually learn to care about his victims which did include Wood whether he had a soul or not. I have a great deal of sympathy for Wood, Spike killed his mother, and even though he had a soul that fact didn't just go away, and I'm not saying Wood was right but Spike was not exactly in the right either. Spike did good in season 7,but he was also counterintutive to it as well since Buffy kept showing bad leadership around him, and she endangered individuals espcially when he had the first manipulating him with the trigger. Wood was not a danger to Spike when Spike and Buffy threatened him so the scene where she threatens to let Spike kill him both Spike and Buffy just plain look bad, and if Buffy is actually considering killing a human being for an undead vampire than Spike is clearly not good for the misson or Buffy.

Her priority is "the mission" just like it was for Wood's mother. Spike IS integral and beyond necessary for success, as we see; therefore, Wood is hindersome to the mission. Buffy knows that Spike is needed, so keeping him alive is important. She gets the mission accomplished with Spike's help, which means that 1)she was a successful leader and 2) that Spike was not a hinderance but an asset. Also, she kept Spike around when the first was manipulating to gather information on the first as is stated in the episodes. Buffy never said she'd kill a human. It wasn't necessary supposed to make her look bad, but emphasize for Wood what Spike was telliing him about Slayers putting their mission as their priority beyond all else. IF Spike was hurting the mission, Buffy would have had him leave.

Spike saved the day but so could Angel if he decided to put on the necklace, although I'm not saying Spike wasn't heroic to do it but he wasn't neccessarily the only one who do so either.

Angel said "it's not me" so, no, he could not have done it. Plus i think it is more powerful for one who willing obtained his soul vs. one who had it cursed on him against his will.

Most of this here, however, has been address under the "I don't like Spike thread" about a dozen times.

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

Buffy wasn't superior she thought she was superior which makes it a superiority complex, there is no proof anywhere in the show that shows Buffy as superior to anyone else anywhere. The scoobies have just as much right to speak up if Buffy was wreckless which she was in season 7, and their not her minons they have the right to get a new leader if they don't think she can handle it. Spike's loyalty to Buffy is the same as blind loyalty the scoobies never gave her that, and Buffy admits the scoobise were right to Spike btw. Buffy had nothing but dumb luck that allowed her to get the scythe or writeer fait because her plan was just as bad as her first plan that got girls killed and Xander injuried, even Faith's plan sounded better on paper because it wasn't based off a simple feeling which could possibly amount to being nothing. Leaders need the trust of their troops and Buffy lost the scoobs and potentionals trust in season 7 which is a factor in her getting kicked out and the ultimatium she made that came back to bite her in the ass, but it was ultimately her choice to leave because she refused to stay because she wouldn't be the leader anymore.Sorry leadership has to be earned, and Buffy doesn't automatically become the leader because she is the slayer, being a slayer doesn't mean one is a good leader. Also Wood may have been wrong but so were Buffy and Spike in that particular situation and Buffy feelings were clouding her judgement in season 7 Giles was right about that, even if what he did was wrong.

Uhm...she's the Slayer which = superior. Except for re: Faith, but not going all murderous i guess allows her to be superior by comparison there. No, they are wrong. Buffy is THE ONE. See how the writers/director gave her that moment of the amazing hero with spotlight and all when she saves Faith and the potentials with the scythe. The writers wanted us to see that she was not only redeemed here but thoroughly deserving of her hero status. Pray tell in what aspects the Slayer is not superior? She is supposed to be; hence the title "buffy the vampire slayer" rather than "giles the watcher" or whatnot. Is knowledge of the truth really a "complex?" If i see some other chick who knows she's drop dead gorgeous and by far better looking than anyone within miles i don't think she has a beauty complex unless she talks down to others like they're the hunchback of notre dame.

 

[Icarium]

We don't know what she is trying to talk to Willow about because she isn't given the chance to do so by Willow.

But we do know that she avoids Xander's questions in the beginning of the episodes and even after the reconciliation in the end doesn't spill the beans about Angel's demise, so I think we can safely assume she wasn't going to tell Willow even if the latter had been perfectly friendly from the start.

When does he hinder the mission again? Is it when he enables her to go get the scythe that, along with Spike's sacrifice allows them to win? Was it due to her miscalculation that was a trap, you know, like the one Faith subsequently led the potentials into as well?

When Buffy pretends the trigger is not a problem. And no, "it worked out in the end" is not a good argument because it leads to things like "Well, Buffy was right not to chase Spike in Halloween because he ended up saving the world". It only worked out because The First was incredibly stupid, he could have easily ordered Spike to kill everyone in Buffy's house while they were sleeping.

Her priority is "the mission" just like it was for Wood's mother. Spike IS integral and beyond necessary for success

No, he isn't, Buffy has defeated plenty of bad guys without Spike. And a guy who is under the mind-control of the Big Bad is a liability, not an asset as long as said mind control is in place.

The writers wanted us to see that she was not only redeemed here but thoroughly deserving of her hero status.

Well, they wanted a lot of things but wanting something and writing it well enough to actually pull it off convincingly are two different things.

No, they are wrong. Buffy is THE ONE. See how the writers/director gave her that moment of the amazing hero with spotlight and all when she saves Faith and the potentials with the scythe.

Or you can watch The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, Witch, etc and notice that Buffy would have been deader than dead very early on if it weren't for the help of her friends. This "superpowers make people a superior race that is not only stronger but better fit to command too" crap is pretty much a S7 invention. And considering that Buffy needed two dei ex machina, an unbelievably incompetent Big Bad adversary and the help of the Big Bad from another show just to scrape through in the end, to say that they did a bad job of making said message convincing would be the understatement of the century, IMO.

 

[KellGreen]

But we do know that she avoids Xander's questions in the beginning of the episodes and even after the reconciliation in the end doesn't spill the beans about Angel's demise, so I think we can safely assume she wasn't going to tell Willow even if the latter had been perfectly friendly from the start..

I don't understand how it matters whether she was going to dive right into that or not. I thought that aspect was a bit irrelevant, and was only trying to show that she was making an effort to connect before she felt from Willow's avoidance and what her mom says that she wasn't wanted and they were better off without her.

When Buffy pretends the trigger is not a problem. And no, "it worked out in the end" is not a good argument because it leads to things like "Well, Buffy was right not to chase Spike in Halloween because he ended up saving the world". It only worked out because The First was incredibly stupid, he could have easily ordered Spike to kill everyone in Buffy's house while they were sleeping.

I don't know how i ended up pulling things off of the thread topic...sorry. My perception is obviously very different from yours. I saw a general in a war looking to the battle and keeping one of the most powerful weapons available around. Yes, of course a bomb can be deadly if it malfunctions before it is set on your enemy, but it is that very power that you need. I see it in terms of a battle. Beyond that, there is nothing you or anyone can possibly say that will make me think he should have been staked.

No, he isn't, Buffy has defeated plenty of bad guys without Spike. And a guy who is under the mind-control of the Big Bad is a liability, not an asset as long as said mind control is in place.

She has, but in this case the writers chose to make him integral. That is the end of story to me on that subject, since, well, that is the story written that i loved watching.

Well, they wanted a lot of things but wanting something and writing it well enough to actually pull it off convincingly are two different things.

True to an extent; however, i think you meant that "writing it well enough...for some people." It was good enough for me and many others on this board. Of course there are many things i thought were crap writing, some of which you may have enjoyed, but nothing is perfect, and overall Buffy was a hell of a lot of a better show than any other to me.

Or you can watch The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, Witch, etc and notice that Buffy would have been deader than dead very early on if it weren't for the help of her friends. This "superpowers make people a superior race that is not only stronger but better fit to command too" crap is pretty much a S7 invention. And considering that Buffy needed two dei ex machina, an unbelievably incompetent Big Bad adversary and the help of the Big Bad from another show just to scrape through in the end, to say that they did a bad job of making said message convincing would be the understatement of the century, IMO.

Whe was written to be flawed and more "human" for many of the viewers to be able to relate to her more. I was happy that she wasn't perfect, infalliable or impervious to harm. A lot of it seemed real enough that i was able to really feel the pain that Buffy was feeling and Sarah was showing us. From our interaction on here, i think i can fairly safely assume that you are at the very least fairly intelligent. Therefore, you must have been in at least one situation in which you knew were the smartest person in the room. Regarding knowledge, you would be the superior one there. Merely knowing that would not mean that you had a superiority complex, but just that you knew things for what they were. Buffy is more important. Yes, the scoobies were written to be an intregral part of her long term survival and successes, but they are not as important as she is. The whole point, though, of the show in S7 and the end is that friends and family are the most important things in life and that the power (superiority) that Buffy was chosen to have should be shared rather than held over others. The "Big Bad" from the other show was for the Bangels to get to see him all tall and pretty and well lighted when Buffy looks up from the ground to take his hand. I give Buffy the credit the writers want her to have: she went against all of the rules and the precedents set by the past slayers to do things her way which worked.

 

[Icarium]

I don't know how i ended up pulling things off of the thread topic...sorry. My perception is obviously very different from yours. I saw a general in a war looking to the battle and keeping one of the most powerful weapons available around. Yes, of course a bomb can be deadly if it malfunctions before it is set on your enemy, but it is that very power that you need. I see it in terms of a battle. Beyond that, there is nothing you or anyone can possibly say that will make me think he should have been staked.

I never said Spike should be staked. Well, not in my previous post at least. 🙂 The point is I find it ludicrous to say Buffy was all about the mission when it came to dealing with Spike's trigger. If she were, she wouldn't have left him roam out free - see how she treats Oz when there is a full moon or Hyena!Xander or basically anyone she doesn't want to kill but is under some mystical influence. They get put into a cage or chained. Buffy wanting to pretend the trigger must be not active just because Spike says so even after she saw him go berserk and injure Dawn is the very opposite of her being all about the mission.

She has, but in this case the writers chose to make him integral. That is the end of story to me on that subject, since, well, that is the story written that i loved watching.

Yeah, they chose to make him important and did it an extremely contrived fashion, that's exactly the point. He wasn't that important at the time he got all those breaks by any objective criteria, he only got the breaks because Buffy had feelings for him. Strongest fighter meant very little when the Bg Bad had thousands of Uber-vampires stronger than him and had him under his mind control to boot. If the show had ended with The Master being resurrected and defeating the First somehow, should Buffy have apologized to him for staking him? Of course not because nobody could have predicted such an absurd turn of events. That's why "he turned out to be crucial" is a pointless argument.

The whole point, though, of the show in S7 and the end is that friends and family are the most important things in life and that the power (superiority) that Buffy was chosen to have should be shared rather than held over others.

Really? All I got from S7 was that having superpowers apparently makes one superior in every way, including intellectually. Well, that and the desire to find some Lethe's bramble and forget about the whole season.

 

[KellGreen]

I never said Spike should be staked. Well, not in my previous post at least. 🙂 The point is I find it ludicrous to say Buffy was all about the mission when it came to dealing with Spike's trigger. If she were, she wouldn't have left him roam out free - see how she treats Oz when there is a full moon or Hyena!Xander or basically anyone she doesn't want to kill but is under some mystical influence. They get put into a cage or chained. Buffy wanting to pretend the trigger must be not active just because Spike says so even after she saw him go berserk and injure Dawn is the very opposite of her being all about the mission .

I think I might fall over in shock😱, but I actually agree with you here. It did not make sense, even to me, that he was not locked up by Buffy

Yeah, they chose to make him important and did it an extremely contrived fashion, that's exactly the point. He wasn't that important at the time he got all those breaks by any objective criteria, he only got the breaks because Buffy had feelings for him. Strongest fighter meant very little when the Bg Bad had thousands of Uber-vampires stronger than him and had him under his mind control to boot. If the show had ended with The Master being resurrected and defeating the First somehow, should Buffy have apologized to him for staking him? Of course not because nobody could have predicted such an absurd turn of events. That's why "he turned out to be crucial" is a pointless argument.

I didn't find it that contrived, but he did come out of the mind control. The master was way far back and soulless, so... i don't quite see the dots connecting😕

Really? All I got from S7 was that having superpowers apparently makes one superior in every way, including intellectually. Well, that and the desire to find some Lethe's bramble and forget about the whole season.

That was the least of my issues there... I could have easily taken in 10X as much of what many viewers see as Buffy's "superiority issues" over the way the potentials were done, so... to each their own. S7 is definitely not my favorite season, but it was still a part of my favorite show... I do believe that quite a few episodes could have been written stronger and that the season as a whole should have been more cohesive, but I would still rather have S7 as it was than to not have had a S7 at all.

 

[PassionBecoming]

To add to my earlier post, I feel like there is always a general lack of communication among the Scoobies. From "Dead Man's Party", "The Yoko Factor", and pretty much all of S6, so many issues could have been resolved had they just chosen to TALK to eachother, rather than just make assumptions and huff and puff about things they (all four of them) think were happening or being said.

I did a lot of yelling at the TV during these times.