The Scoobies vs. Buffy: "Empty Places"

EvilWillow said:
Huh? I don't know what you are referring to, could you please explain it better and be a little less vague?

Btw, thanks for the negative Karma. That was really nice of you.
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If Xander was such an selfish asshole why did he tried to rescue the relationship between Buffy and Riley? If he really wanted her for his own, that was really heroic from him. And all in all I think he just wanted to make Buffy happy. And if she is happy while loving Angel or Riley, he doesn't care, if he really could he would save both relationships if he thought that Buffy would be happpy!
Btw, the negative karma was for the "asshole", I just don't see why you call people here on BB like this, it ruins the friendly atmosphare here. And don't make you so much about negative karma, do you really think you're the first one who get some?
 
Ripper666 said:
If Xander was such an selfish asshole why did he tried to rescue the relationship between Buffy and Riley? If he really wanted her for his own, that was really heroic from him. And all in all I think he just wanted to make Buffy happy. And if she is happy while loving Angel or Riley, he doesn't care, if he really could he would save both relationships if he thought that Buffy would be happpy!
Btw, the negative karma was for the "asshole", I just don't see why you call people here on BB like this, it ruins the friendly atmosphare here. And don't make you so much about negative karma, do you really think you're the first one who get some?
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I never called anyone here an asshole. I called a fictional character an asshole. Relax.

The Riley situation was in season 5. Angel was in season 2. Big difference. Plus, Xander was already with Anya and had moved on from Buffy.
The point I was trying to make was Xander will stand by Buffy as long as it doesn't inhibit anything he wants.
 
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Ripper666
I would never critizse your oppinion but next time just write a "big idiot" or something like this instead asshole ok? It's not very nice to read and makes me aggressive!
EvilWillow said:
The point I was trying to make was Xander will stand by Buffy as long as it doesn't inhibit anything he wants.
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I don't think so. He loves her too much to act like this! He's her friend, not an enemy. He made mistakes. Buffy did some too! But all in all he is very loyal and goes not in such a deep level down. He often showed that she means a lot to him and he does everything to make her happy.
 
Ripper666 said:
I don't think so. He loves her too much to act like this! He's her friend, not an enemy. He made mistakes. Buffy did some too! But all in all he is very loyal and goes not in such a deep level down. He often showed that she means a lot to him and he does everything to make her happy.
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I never claimed he was her enemy or that Buffy doesn't mean anything to him. I'm just merely pointing out his flaws because my viewpoint was challenged. I don't dislike Xander, just his actions.
 
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Ripper666
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EvilWillow said:
Xander didn't tell Buffy about Angel because he was a selfish asshole who didn't want to see her have a happy ending because he wanted her for himself.
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I disagree. Xander already had Cordelia. Xander had moved on from being jealous and wanting Buffy for himself. Xander was scared that Buffy would stall and Angel would kill her, that Willow wouldn't be able to do it, that the world would end.

He shouldn't have done it, IMO. He should have had more faith in Buffy. But it wasn't about wanting Buffy for himself. If it was about that, then he'd have cheered Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel in What's My Line Part 2, but Xander was against killing Angel before he lost his soul. Angel now had lost his sould, had killed people, had killed Jenny, was about to end the world. All these reasons played into why Xander lied.
 
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Ripper666
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sosa lola said:
I disagree. Xander already had Cordelia. Xander had moved on from being jealous and wanting Buffy for himself. Xander was scared that Buffy would stall and Angel would kill her, that Willow wouldn't be able to do it, that the world would end.

He shouldn't have done it, IMO. He should have had more faith in Buffy. But it wasn't about wanting Buffy for himself. If it was about that, then he'd have cheered Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel in What's My Line Part 2, but Xander was against killing Angel before he lost his soul. Angel now had lost his sould, had killed people, had killed Jenny, was about to end the world. All these reasons played into why Xander lied.
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But really, I don't think Xander cared that much about Cordelia. He certainly didn't return the feelings that she had for him. Xander had always hated Angel, even when he had a soul. Why? Because of his relationship with Buffy. Because he was jealous.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that Angel killed people was part of it. But it was more than just that. Anya had killed many people, yet Xander started a relationship with her and even "attempted" to marry her, even though she chose to become a demon and Angel did not.

The underlying issue between Angel and Xander is that Angel had Buffy, and she was someone that Xander desperately wanted.

He lied because he didn't want them to get back together. Maybe there were other factors but that's the main one I see.
 
The idea that Xander didn't tell Buffy because he wanted her for himself hinges on him having read the next season script and noticing Buffy won't mention his actions. At the time of "the Lie" the obvious outcome would have been Buffy finding out and getting real pissed at Xander as a result of that. Angel being out of the picture doesn't mean Buffy gets to automatically date Xander either.

And of course, a guy calls Joss Whedon described Xander's lie as "general's decision" but what would he know...
 
Well I see this thread degenerated into a Buffy/Cordi/Xander thread! This is nice too see and very interesting too but I still have something to ad to the main-topic.

We all searched the fault by Buffy or the Scoobie-Gang. Both made mistakes. But how could they get so far? Wasn't it the first evil who has fault? Didn't it set this psychiolocial trap for them? I think there is also a part of the failure set in the first-evil. It setted the trap, and the Scoobie-Gang and Buffy failed at his challenge. At least in the beginning. But then Buffy broke...and raised. She came back. And showed that she is the leader who everybody was searching for! She grew at the challenge. In my eyes the others didn't because there was never a word of sorry for Buffy from them.
 
[MENTION=11629]Ripper666[/MENTION] ok. Then I was wrong!😀
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I'm pretty sure he at one point says it's his home and she tells him it no longer is. will look up a transcript, tomorrow.... or rather, later today 😀
 
Icarium said:
The idea that Xander didn't tell Buffy because he wanted her for himself hinges on him having read the next season script and noticing Buffy won't mention his actions. At the time of "the Lie" the obvious outcome would have been Buffy finding out and getting real pissed at Xander as a result of that. Angel being out of the picture doesn't mean Buffy gets to automatically date Xander either.

And of course, a guy calls Joss Whedon described Xander's lie as "general's decision" but what would he know...
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What Joss says doesn't matter. What we see, and feel and interpret matters. We can think for ourselves. We don't need Joss Whedon to decide our opinions for us.
 
Empty Places basically solidified my view that the Scoobies do not have a strong bond, for something like this to happen so late in the season? Shows how fragile their friendship is. There's also "Touched" when the Scoobies think it's their last night and everyone spends it with someone else (Buffy with Spike, Willow with Kennedy, Xander with Anya, etc.). It's just that they don't have a familial bond like the Fang Gang has, the Scoobies are much more of a high school friendship, where they aren't as close and they all find more important thing in their lives
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
it's sad but true
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sisterofmercy
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Hale Caesar said:
Empty Places basically solidified my view that the Scoobies do not have a strong bond, for something like this to happen so late in the season? Shows how fragile their friendship is. There's also "Touched" when the Scoobies think it's their last night and everyone spends it with someone else (Buffy with Spike, Willow with Kennedy, Xander with Anya, etc.). It's just that they don't have a familial bond like the Fang Gang has, the Scoobies are much more of a high school friendship, where they aren't as close and they all find more important thing in their lives
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This is exactly how feel. The Scoobies were like co-dependent friends, while The Fang Gang was more like a family.
 
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