The Senior Partners' Purpose

L

LadyLavinia

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Is the following true?


"Lindsey claims that the Apocalypse is simply everyday life, that the Black Thorn turn the wheels of Armageddon by keeping the world the way it is, continually allowing evil to gain positions of power. Angel was able to take out the Black Thorn because he took over management of W&H, if he had not done this he would not even know about the existence of the Black Thorn and the Apocalypse would continue uninterrupted. So if the Senior Partners simply wanted to ensure that he didn't screw things up they should have killed him or left him running Angel Investigations."

In case I got this wrong, was Lindsey trying to say that the Circle of the Black Thorn was the cause of the world's misery? All those daily little apocalypses? And that Angel & Co. were needed back on the street to prevent those little apocalypses?
 
Xin Rong
Xin Rong
Great idea for a thread!!!
They wanted Angel on their side so they recruited him to Wolfram & Hart, in hopes of corrupting him.

I think...
 
I think we need to check the transcripts for actual proof of this.

Though there would always be misery without the Circle. You can't blame everything on one group.

Humans alone cause misery. They need not the help of powerful, evil and corrupt demons.
 
I believe it was Underneath? I think that's the one where Harrison shows up. Can anyone back me up on this, cuz I'm not 100 percent sure...
 
The Senior Partner's APOCALYPSE:

Here's some pertinent passages from ATS describing the Senior Partner's Apocalypse.

Holland Manners describes the Senior Partner's apocalypse.

"Holland: "Now I don't think that's true. - Be honest. - You got the tiniest bit of 'give a crap' left. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on this Kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something - in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you're supposed to prevent. Now what was that?"

Angel: "The apocalypse."

Holland: "Yes, the apocalypse, of course. - Another one of those. Well, it's true. We do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely. I wasn't thinking. - Of course all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but, hey, it's always something, isn't it?"

The elevator shaft and cable dissolve as the elevator continues to plummet into a hellish red glow.

Angel: "You're not gonna win."

Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"

Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.

Angel: "Then why?"

Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"

Angel: "Why fight?"

Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."
And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.
The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.

Holland: "Welcome to the home office."

Angel: "This isn't..."

Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."

The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it.

Holland calling after him as the doors close: "Have a nice day."

*

Lilah discusses it in Deep Down

"Lilah: "If our purpose is to get caught with our prophecies down. Angel is supposed to be a major player in the apocalypse. The little pet project the Senior partners have been working on since, oh, the beginning of time? Three months and all you've been able to ferret out is - nothing!"[/i][/b]

*

Lilah again

LILAH
(to phone) A 300% increase? In the last hour? Uh-huh. Oh, ya think? Well, don't. Just shut up. Get me an incident report cross-referenced by region, socio-economic backgrounds, and species. Oh, and get Gavin up here. Somebody's trying to muscle in on our apocalypse and that is not gonna happen while[/i][/b]

*

Lilah on the SPs Apocalypse, and the Beast's in Habeas Corpses.

"LILAH
I'll tell you why. Because he can. It's the 800 pound gorilla it can do whatever the hell it wants. I get that. But other than charbroiling everything in sight, I don't think it has an agenda. And that makes our job tricky.

GAVIN
What job?

LILAH
The senior partners want us to try and cut a deal with it.

GAVIN
(chuckles) You can't be serious.

LILAH
Why? It wants the same things we do. An apocalypse, end of the world, yadda yadda yadda. Partners feel it might speed things along and save a few bucks.


Angel discusses problem with Spike in Underneath:"


ANGEL
I'm not saying that I can fix everything. I just I... I have to do better. The senior partners have a plan.

SPIKE
(scoffs)
Yeah, the prophecy. That ever-lovin' apocalypse you keep going on about.

ANGEL
Yeah, which apocalypse the one last year or the year before that? No, the senior partners are up to something now, and I'm not waiting for them to spring it on us. We're through operating in the dark.

*

Lindsey discusses it in Underneath:

"Lindsey and Eve are sitting side-by-side on the couch; Lindsey's leaning on Eve's shoulder. He looks up when Angel walks in after changing clothes.

ANGEL
The senior partners want to know everything you know about them. About the apocalypse, about their plans for me.

SPIKE
(standing, dressing)
And for me. The guy with the pen said, "welcome to the team." Must've meant something.

LINDSEY
You know what I know. Look around. The world's a cesspool... full of selfish and greedy beasts. We live, we die. Even you, babe.

EVE
(hurt)
Lindsey, don't.

LINDSEY
You still happy to see me?

ANGEL
Yeah, hell's on earth. Holland manners tried to sell me that line 3 years ago.

LINDSEY
Did you ever prove him wrong?

ANGEL
All how you look at the glass. You know, Lindsey, we can philosophize all night. Hell...
(chuckles)
We could do it forever, huh? I don't need to eat, sleep, drink.
(sits)
How about you?

LINDSEY
(grins)
That's what I like to see... the Angel of yore. Takes no prisoners, suffers no fools. How 'bout this? It's here. It's been here all along. Underneath. You're just too damn stupid to see it.

ANGEL
(leans forward)
See what?

LINDSEY
The apocalypse, man. You're soaking in it.

SPIKE
I've seen an apocalypse or two in my time. I'd know I one was under my nose.

LINDSEY
Not an apocalypse. The apocalypse. What'd you think, a gong was gonna sound? Time to jump on your horses and fight the big fight? Starting pistol went off a long time ago, boys. You're playing for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub... heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it.

ANGEL
(sits back)
You're saying everything we do... it's a distraction... to keep us busy from looking under the surface.

LINDSEY
(snaps fingers)
Ding! We have a winner! The world keeps sliding towards entropy and degradation, and what do you do? You sit in your big chair, and you sign your checks, just like the senior partners planned. The war's here, Angel. And you're already 2 soldiers down."
 
Why bring about an apocalypse in the first place? For what purpose would it serve the Senior Partners? To give the demonic world a chance to reclaim the earth? Why? What is so damn special about the earth? It's just another planet. Or in case of the demons, another dimension to corrupt. What's the big deal?
 
Well thats the fun part isnt it? That we don't know. Maybe its that Earth and its inhabitants are just so darn easy to corrupt. Or maybe we have the best climate. Could be the topography and geography of Earth. Mighty appealing. And it sure as hell beats conquring a world made entirely of shrimp.
 
J
Jacklyn
LMAO-Clever answer :)
Kaden said:
Well thats the fun part isnt it? That we don't know. Maybe its that Earth and its inhabitants are just so darn easy to corrupt. Or maybe we have the best climate. Could be the topography and geography of Earth. Mighty appealing. And it sure as hell beats conquring a world made entirely of shrimp.
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Or maybe it's just good old-fashioned human arrogance, on the ME writers' part.
 
you can't be serious right? I mean didn't you know? This planet is the center of the universe! possibly the Multiverse. j/k

My theory is that perhaps Earth acts as a gateway and the biggest portal hotspot generator in the Uni/Multiverse. Possibly why they want it so bad.
 
C
Cordelia
good theory :D
That's so cool Kaden. I hope you're serious, because I'm writing a fanfic that proposes that exact same thing.

I'd also like to point out that there is precedent in the Buffy/Angelverse, for the attraction Demons have to this reality, and there individual reasons.

Every demony thing from The First to the Bozur comes here with an agenda that can only be brought about here.

Also this reality is the home of the original Demons. Fray # 3 tells us they didn't leave willingly. They had to be evicted.

The fact that the demons want to be here is an established fact. Is that just a writer's conceit? So what if it is. It works. Does it demand explanation in order to enjoy the series? I don't think so.
 
Exactly. Not to mention, how many times have we seen portals open on Earth? Have you ever noticed how much easier it is to open a portal on earth than it is to open one TO earth? Again supporting the theory of dimenionsal/portal hot spot generator
 
Kaden said:
you can't be serious right? I mean didn't you know? This planet is the center of the universe! possibly the Multiverse. j/k

My theory is that perhaps Earth acts as a gateway and the biggest portal hotspot generator in the Uni/Multiverse. Possibly why they want it so bad.
Click to expand...



Like I said . . . human arrogance on the writers' part. I've seen signs of it in other fantasy and sci-fi sagas.
 
LadyLavinia said:
Like I said . . . human arrogance on the writers' part. I've seen signs of it in other fantasy and sci-fi sagas.
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well it is their show, they have the right to say it. They are the creators and shapers of that universe and are entitled to do what ever they please with it
 
Kaden said:
well it is their show, they have the right to say it. They are the creators and shapers of that universe and are entitled to do what ever they please with it
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You're right. It is Whedon's show and he has the right to do whatever he pleases.

Just as I have the right to dismiss some of his work as human arrogance on his part.
 
LadyLavinia said:
You're right. It is Whedon's show and he has the right to do whatever he pleases.

Just as I have the right to dismiss some of his work as human arrogance on his part.
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Well actually LL, I as moderator have the unfortunate duty of telling you, I'm not sure that's absolutely correct.

I believe there's a rule in the FAQs that states something like outright bashing of the actors or writers is not supposed to happen. I'll double-check that for you when I get a chance. I could have this boards rules mixed up with another board I belong to.

You know though, if you could offer some kind of support for these claims you've been making lately that sound like you're saying Joss is an arrogant racist, I could let it slip by as legitimate comment. Without concrete support though, it's just bashing.
 
Okay, here is my take on this deal.

The Apocalypse is a planned long term attack by the Senior Partners on humanity to cause it to bring about it's own destruction by gradually tipping the balance inside us all us towards evil.

That is basically the purpose of Wolfram and Hart, to give the most evil among us the real power through our own legal system and tip the balance until eventually we wipe ourselves out or give the demons enough power to retake the planet from us.

The reason i believe that they want the earth is very simple, it used to be theirs and they want it back. We overthrew them at some point banishing them to various dimensions and ever since they have been plotting to get their revenge and get their true home back.
 
That's the way I alway's looked at too. Based on what they give you that alway's seemed like the most reasonable way to look at it.

When you start to look for possibilities beyond the text though, for fanfic purposes or whatever, I've always had affection for that possibility mentioned earlier where this reality could be a kind of core reality from which alternate realities could be spun.
 
QUOTE]The Apocalypse is a planned long term attack by the Senior Partners on humanity to cause it to bring about it's own destruction by gradually tipping the balance inside us all us towards evil.[/QUOTE]


Aren't humans - even in the Jossverse - capable of bring upon their own destruction? This is what I dislike about this story arc. That the writers are blaming the evils and miseries of the world on a group of corporealized demons and evil humans, instead of accepting the possibility that humans are responsible for their own miseries. What a cop out!
 
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