The Senior Partners: What the heck *are* they?

[WyrdDemonHunter]

In this season, in some episodes (such as 5x17 Underneath), the characters begin to seem less and less certain that they truly understand the nature of the Senior Partners. Even Eve, liason to the partners, is unable to answer the question! So, let's put our heads together and fail utterly to answer this question before the last five eps play out. 🙂

What are the Senior Partners!?

[edit to add the below text:]

I was going to post a silly poll. But the aggrivating, annoying system creates the thread, then gives you only five minutes to post a poll. (my first thread, heh)

So, as best I can remeber, this is how it went (you may choose more than one option):

What are the Senior Partners? Are they...
1.) the Lords of Hell?
2.) the opposite of the Powers That Be?
3.) the same as the Powers That Be?
4.) not the same as TPTB, but not the exact opposite of them either?
5.) twisted, cruel, funny, fickle fate?
6.) a bunch of old white guys sittinng around a table in a smoke filled room in an old shack somewhere in a desert in New Mexico?
7.) (same as above), but with one token female or minority?
8.) another part or form of The First?
9.) aliens from Alpha Centauri?
10.) a matchmaking service for octogenarians?

 

[Ayumi]

I think they are the Wolf, Ram, and Hart we heard about in the Through the Looking Glass and Shells.

 

[Happy]

I think it's safe to say that the senior partners are not the wolf the ram and the hart. We've seen Angel kill a senior partner in season two, so if that were the case then they'd all be working at Wolfram, not Wolfram & Hart.

What are the Senior Partners? Are they...

1.) the Lords of Hell?

Well, it's likely that their primary base of operations is Earth. We know, thanks to Illyria, that they hail from our world. So Holland was likely telling the truth. They have probably moved to another plane of existence. However, even if they have become 'Lords' of such a place, that is not likely to define them.

2.) the opposite of the Powers That Be?

... and the Powers that Be, would be (hey, that's almost a song!) what? We can't exactly define what the Senior Partners are by suggesting that they are the opposite of something that we equally don't truly understand.

The main bits of knowledge we possess of the Powers comes from Jasmine. She seemed to suggest that the opposite of the Powers would be the Old Ones. Illyria's suggestion that Wolfram & Hart were small and of little consequence in her time would suggest that they are, or were, less than that.

3.) the same as the Powers That Be?

I've heard people suggest before that The Powers and the senior partners are one and the same. Although I wouldn't rule it out entirely it seems that their motives seemed to be directly opposite on enough occasions to make it highly unlikely.

4.) not the same as TPTB, but not the exact opposite of them either?

Not the same, but not totally different? Heck that could make the senior partners anyone... even me... but I'm not.

5.) twisted, cruel, funny, fickle fate?

Wolfram & Hart have an agenda, fate is an agenda unto itself. If Wolfram & Hart were fate then they wouldn't have to actively try to cause things to happen, because those things would be fated to happen and would happen regardless of their actions.

6.) a bunch of old white guys sittinng around a table in a smoke filled room in an old shack somewhere in a desert in New Mexico?

I could see this happening (okay maybe not shack in New Mexico part). The symbols of the wolf, ram and hart tend to make be think that perhaps they were symbols used to represent one of the first human organizations, developed perhaps before the written word (animals are often seen depicted in cave wall paintings... perhaps the wolf, ram and hart are simply used to denote a gathering of men).

Perhaps the senior partners are the descendants of the shadow men who created the Slayer, or the descendants of powerful sorcerers who may be the reason that the Old Ones were driven from Earth into other dimensions.

The presence of the Klynach demon which Angel killed in season two would seem to throw a wrench into this idea, but that is not necessarily the case. We know that the partner was just using the form of the Klynach demon, parhaps this demon was a human polymorphed or body-switched into said form. There's also the possibility that they've simply taken a number of demons into their fold.

7.) (same as above), but with one token female or minority?

Well, the times they are a changin' (especially for Wolfram & Hart who've apparently been around since dirt was young). Lilah got pretty high up in the firm so I could see them being up with times enough to have female members (perhaps several and even ones of the non-token variety... maybe African American ones too!).

8.) another part or form of The First?

I doubt there would ever be a time when The First was small and weak, as Illyria suggests that Wolfram & Hart was in her day. With giant Evil demons of mass destruction wandering freely about the Earth I'm sure The First Evil would have been worshipped as a God, or something equally impressive.

9.) aliens from Alpha Centauri?

The small furry kind? Doubt it. 🙂

10.) a matchmaking service for octogenarians?

Let me take this moment to say *barf*. Not even Wolfram & Hart could be so evil. Facilitating copulation between the geriatric? So, so wrong.

 

[MentPatient]

What are the Senior Partners? Are they...
1.) the Lords of Hell?
2.) the opposite of the Powers That Be?
3.) the same as the Powers That Be?
4.) not the same as TPTB, but not the exact opposite of them either?
5.) twisted, cruel, funny, fickle fate?
6.) a bunch of old white guys sittinng around a table in a smoke filled room in an old shack somewhere in a desert in New Mexico?
7.) (same as above), but with one token female or minority?
8.) another part or form of The First?
9.) aliens from Alpha Centauri?
10.) a matchmaking service for octogenarians?

don't know to me they seem kind of like the opposites of the TPTB because their acendended beings but are evil....
they could also be TPTB.... kind of because it's like us... some of us are good while some are bad and stuff....

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

Re: Happy

Good point about the SP not being able to be the same as Wolfram & Hart. Good point about Jasmine. I'll have to go back and listen to her "meta" origin, origin story that she told to Angel and co again.

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On point #4, I agree that, at it's simplist, this can be interpreted to mean that the SP could be almost anyone. However, in the strictest logical interp, it would be still saying that the SP would not be the same as TPTB. (So that's one item ticked off of the list of possible things that the SP could be.)

What I was trying to get at here was the notition that sometimes powerful forces are not diametrically opposed. Sometimes they're only mostly opposed with maybe a bit of overlap... or maybe there is no overlap at all, but still there's no simple distinction of direct opposition. (Ex: a 43 yr old father of two, banker living in the Bronx vs. ... an immature sea gull in San Francisco. Now I know, if you look at it in just a certain way, you find something in common between these two, but please don't do that because it would be annoying.) In fact, many people and things and ideas in the real world are neither diametrically opposed or the same thing. I was merely postulating the the SP compared to TPTB might be be, all at once: similar, different, but yet not exactly different in the way that night is from day or good is from evil.

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About 6: I always figured the SP weren't human. Up till now, I hadin't considered that they might simply be a cabal of various entities that head up tihs organization for their own ends--much like in a regular corporation or perhaps a regluar law firm.

On 7-10: Ok, you seem to be using "Senior Partners" and "Wolfram & Hart" interchangibly as if they were the same thing. But I was never sure that, that was the case. Somewhere along the way, as the seasons progressed, I got the idea that the law firm Wolfram & Hart was only the current form/means of action employed by the Senior Partners, whatever they were. I figured they were sort of "evil incarnate" or something like that, and that they were based in a sort of Hell of All Hells.

But this season, and that thing back in Pylea in season two make me wonder about that. But then again, there's Illyria saying that back in her time the Wolf, Ram, and Hart (organisation?) was very tiny. And would the Senior Partners have ever have been tiny?

It might help if I had more lawyer vocabulary or if I knew more about how one gets to be the "senior partner" at a law firm.

I think I know less now about W&H and the SP than when I started the thread, but that was perhaps the point. 🙂 I was too lazy to get my brain goin' on my own, now it's in gear and I have something to think about. 🙂

... It might be nice to one day have a Cosmology of the Whedonverse.

So now, does anyone want to tackle the question: Which came first: the Senior Partners (but possibly with some other name or title) or the Wolf, Ram, and Hart?

 

[WatcherWes]

I don't think the Senior Partners could only be the "Wolf, Ram and Hart", because Angel killed one, and Lilah talked to one. I'd imagine that the "Wolf, Ram and Hart" founded the firm, and over time, when a particularly powerful yet pragmatic demon comes along, they offer him/her/it a position as a Senior Partner. I don't think they're the TPB's.

 

[slayerpower]

I think it'd be hilarious if the SPs were the PTB. There's no black and white in this world--only grey. It makes senses that they'd be the same.

 

[Ethaniel]

Has anyone considered this - the Senior Partners and the Powers That Be could be the same WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT! Kind of like two sides of the same coin. Imagine you want to be the big bad running the show, but you want to do it all from behind the curtain. So you create, (or manipulate) two public faces: one good, one evil. They go about their business fighting eachother throughout the centuries with humanity stuck in the crossfire - hence, the apocalypse.

Think about it. Can you think of a better strategy for world domination than to play both sides of the game against the middle?

 

[Allycat]

For now, I'm going for all of those options at once 😀

 

[maelstrom209]

Well, I guess that the Senior Partners could be the opposite of the Powers That Be but not the exact opposite. One thing that I've learned from the Buffyverse is that nothing is purely black or white. Everything has a grey area and the major powers of both "good" and "evil" are no different.

One of you guys pointed out the Angel killed a Senior Partner. When did that happen because I don't recall that at all.

Also, its funny that we'd even consider TPTB and TSP are the same thing. In the Buffyverse, I wouldn't expect any less.

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

One of you guys pointed out the Angel killed a Senior Partner. When did that happen because I don't recall that at all.

1) it's the episode where (dead) Holland Manners gives his awesome "evil is everywhere" speech, 2) it was season two as Happy says 3) it was immediately after Angel slept with Darla, 4) it was before the episode named "Epiphany" (in which Angel has an epiphany), 5) can't remember the name right now and can't be bothered to look it up 'cause I just finished working: eight hours 2 hours sleep, then 16.33 hours. 🙂

 

[Happy]

5) can't remember the name right now

The episode in question was Reprise.