The set up scene for the Spin off that never was

[Btvs fan]

Agree, that was an awful idea.




That's true. I also believe when she says there was the pressure to follow on from BTVS.

To follow on from Buffy would've been difficult, and unless you had a number of the cast in there too, I'm not sure it would've been enough for the series to have worked. That's not a slight on ED, by the way. I think Faith works as part of an ensemble, but I guess you never know!





Yeah? I thought it was the other way around?

No Buffy was big in the UK and the BBC were desperate for it but Joss cooled on the idea and looked at other stuff instead

Post automatically merged: Jun 15, 2025

I haven't looked at the comics, because comics are not my thing and the descriptions of them are less than flattering, but I think it just confirms that, despite what Joss claimed to UPN and how he tried to sell a season eight, there were no more stories to tell about Buffy. He had a five season plan and when that was done, he was out of ideas.

However, I think that Angel showed that, although there were no more ideas for Buffy, there were plenty for the Buffyverse as a whole. Though having Chosen brutally activate without permission every Potential in the world seriously damaged this. But things like Lorne's club showed there were more non-Slayer stories - these actually make ideal one-off miniseries - and there were historical Slayers.

Some of the best stuff in Angel was not even him, it was more Tim Minear. Joss idea was Angel was very basic. A cliche monster/victim of the week show. Angel shows up kills the monster and saves the good looking girl. It was Tim Minear who made the journey more a character journey about Angel himself. Joss was smart enough to go with it, to be fair to him as he recognised Tim was probably the best script writer of either show

 

[hoponlilmama]

No Buffy was big in the UK and the BBC were desperate for it but Joss cooled on the idea and looked at other stuff instead

Post automatically merged: Jun 15, 2025

All this talk has got me reading! I don't know how accurate this is:

Ripper

⤷ Note: This article is about the undeveloped show. For the character, see Rupert Giles. Ripper,[1] also provisionally called The Watcher,[2] is a proposed television show based upon the character of Rupert "Ripper" Giles as a spin-off series from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.[2] More recent...

buffy.fandom.com

A shame it never completely got off the ground - much like the other spinoffs.

 

[NotASlayer]

Some of the best stuff in Angel was not even him, it was more Tim Minear. Joss idea was Angel was very basic. A cliche monster/victim of the week show. Angel shows up kills the monster and saves the good looking girl. It was Tim Minear who made the journey more a character journey about Angel himself. Joss was smart enough to go with it, to be fair to him as he recognised Tim was probably the best script writer of either show

I think that does contribute to the presumption that Joss was out of ideas by that point. But it does help to know when someone else has a better idea, and I guess in this case it was true.

 

[garfan]

He did go back and do the comics a few years later. At the time of those, people's hopes were high. It was going to be Joss unleashed and he didn't need to worry about studio constraints or actors or budgets. Simply to draw it. What happened they were crap

turns out some people need to be kept on a leash. The number of times the results happen like they did with Joss should clue people in, but it never does. God, it is so tedious

Post automatically merged: Jun 15, 2025

Even if Buffy had not ended - and really, it effectively did at The Gift because what came after was NotBuffy - that would still have been the time to push for spin offs.

Buffy had been renewed for two years, Angel was going, I assume pretty well, and Firefly would have been at the very least agreed to I expect. So, Joss would have been looking golden.

In the middle of season seven, it was a different story. S6 had gone down like a lead balloon, with the audience and, worse, the lead actor. You can keep a series going after the character it is named after goes - I was watching a video this week on one that managed it, the low budget British classic Blake's 7, grim and gritty before grim and gritty was a thing - but it is not remotely easy. Firefly was cancelled and Angel sounds like it was on shaky ground. Joss had three series and was now looking to be heading for none. And, as @AlphaFoxtrot mentioned, he probably was desperate to keep the Mutant Enemy staff on, so was probably desperate for a new series. Which, combined with how so many people were just sick and tired of Buffy by that point and the season's poor writing, as originality and plot ideas died with Buffy, probably made him look desperate too. And there just wasn't a setup for a new series done; Spike and Andrew's road trip was probably the closest thing to a backdoor pilot and I doubt it was intended as such.

it is so frustrating the number of modern fans trying to repair season 6's rep. Sorry that it speaks to you now, but at the time the vast majority hated it.

Post automatically merged: Jun 15, 2025

I haven't looked at the comics, because comics are not my thing and the descriptions of them are less than flattering, but I think it just confirms that, despite what Joss claimed to UPN and how he tried to sell a season eight, there were no more stories to tell about Buffy. He had a five season plan and when that was done, he was out of ideas.

However, I think that Angel showed that, although there were no more ideas for Buffy, there were plenty for the Buffyverse as a whole. Though having Chosen brutally activate without permission every Potential in the world seriously damaged this. But things like Lorne's club showed there were more non-Slayer stories - these actually make ideal one-off miniseries - and there were historical Slayers.

Historical Slayers all died, I think the audience would get sick of that pretty quick. And honestly, I'm not sure Joss ever reallly wanted to make the demons more sympathetic

 

[Btvs fan]

turns out some people need to be kept on a leash. The number of times the results happen like they did with Joss should clue people in, but it never does. God, it is so tedious

Post automatically merged: Jun 15, 2025

it is so frustrating the number of modern fans trying to repair season 6's rep. Sorry that it speaks to you now, but at the time the vast majority hated it.

Post automatically merged: Jun 15, 2025

Historical Slayers all died, I think the audience would get sick of that pretty quick. And honestly, I'm not sure Joss ever reallly wanted to make the demons more sympathetic

You have to remember at the time, it was seen as Joss being held back by the network or locked in cupboard by Marti or kidnapped by Aliens or Diva actresses like Sarah ir anything. Nothing was his fault and he was God.
To be fair the first couple of issues of the comic weren't bad.
It's problems happened after it and were that it was dragged out and basically became an excuse to indulge in some LSD wtf stories like Buffy sleeping with a student and Xander riding Dawn as she is a horse, plus Twilight being Angel murdering Buffys Slayers then Buffy having space sex with him and that creates a Universe. Spike shows up in a space ship with giant bugs and they meet the Master and fight this battle round a giant Egg. Angel kills Giles and Buffy destroys the Slayer power (Joss got bored with the Slayers as an idea) and Buffy basically abandons all the girls under her care and gets a job at coffee shop in San Francisco.

 

[hoponlilmama]

You have to remember at the time, it was seen as Joss being held back by the network or locked in cupboard by Marti or kidnapped by Aliens or Diva actresses like Sarah ir anything. Nothing was his fault and he was God.
To be fair the first couple of issues of the comic weren't bad.
It's problems happened after it and were that it was dragged out and basically became an excuse to indulge in some LSD wtf stories like Buffy sleeping with a student and Xander riding Dawn as she is a horse, plus Twilight being Angel murdering Buffys Slayers then Buffy having space sex with him and that creates a Universe. Spike shows up in a space ship with giant bugs and they meet the Master and fight this battle round a giant Egg. Angel kills Giles and Buffy destroys the Slayer power (Joss got bored with the Slayers as an idea) and Buffy basically abandons all the girls under her care and gets a job at coffee shop in San Francisco.

If I ever need to have a laugh, I'm going to come back to this summary of the comics. 🤣

I mean no offense to anyone who enjoys the comics, that's great and I'm glad you do. However, reading the above is the reason I stand firm that the series ended in 2003.

 

[Btvs fan]

If I ever need to have a laugh, I'm going to come back to this summary of the comics. 🤣

I mean no offense to anyone who enjoys the comics, that's great and I'm glad you do. However, reading the above is the reason I stand firm that the series ended in 2003.

I like to think it ended in 2001 with her death. To be frank it should have
While Angel ended in 2004 with him and Spike dying in that alleyway against impossible odds

 

[garfan]

You have to remember at the time, it was seen as Joss being held back by the network or locked in cupboard by Marti or kidnapped by Aliens or Diva actresses like Sarah ir anything. Nothing was his fault and he was God.
To be fair the first couple of issues of the comic weren't bad.
It's problems happened after it and were that it was dragged out and basically became an excuse to indulge in some LSD wtf stories like Buffy sleeping with a student and Xander riding Dawn as she is a horse, plus Twilight being Angel murdering Buffys Slayers then Buffy having space sex with him and that creates a Universe. Spike shows up in a space ship with giant bugs and they meet the Master and fight this battle round a giant Egg. Angel kills Giles and Buffy destroys the Slayer power (Joss got bored with the Slayers as an idea) and Buffy basically abandons all the girls under her care and gets a job at coffee shop in San Francisco.

he didn't destroy the Slayer power, he destroyed magic. Anything that already had powers like the Slayers kept it

Now he did do a stupid thing where somehow not using their strength dwindled their powers or something like that so magic designed to detect Slayers couldn't work. It made no sense

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Joss had written Astonishing X-Men, the best comic book run of the 21st century. So, he could write compelling comics.

My guess is, Dark Horse was used to working with Lucasfilm, which was unrivaled with this type of thing back in the day. George had a clear big picture creative vision, knew how to world build, and was willing to work with others while retaining editorial oversight. Whereas, Joss's greatness was in rewriting other people's tired old stories into some fresh and profound. That's what made 1-5 great. He was writing this like Season 6-7 or his involvement on Angel, where provides some key seasonal plot points, some story ideas, but let's the staff do what they want.

 

[NotASlayer]

Whereas, Joss's greatness was in rewriting other people's tired old stories into some fresh and profound. That's what made 1-5 great. He was writing this like Season 6-7 or his involvement on Angel, where provides some key seasonal plot points, some story ideas, but let's the staff do what they want.

And that is noticeable especially in S6 where you had typical teen soap opera stories (which is what they apparently were) with vampires, demons and magic crudely crowbarred in (plus the addition of implausible sci fi elements). Which results in "teen becomes addicted to drugs thanks to a trusted friend" becoming "magic which represents Tara and Willow's relationship becoming a dirty and disgusting thing no right-thinking person would do" which is just awful.

 

[NotASlayer]

Historical Slayers all died, I think the audience would get sick of that pretty quick.

Well, yes. That is why they are historical. 😀 They literally cannot be alive.

However, there is nothing to say when they died or how long they were Slayers for. They may not have died from Slaying; natural causes would be a big killer too. Being around demon blood and vampire dust may not be hygienic either, in the long term.

All you need to do is not display their deaths on the screen. Sure, we know they died, because if they hadn't, Buffy would not have become the Slayer, but we don't necessarily need to see how.

From what I have seen, The Walking Dead franchise kept going (is still going?) for years and had spinoffs despite the fact that it never got any better for the survivors who regularly died.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I like to think it ended in 2001 with her death. To be frank it should have
While Angel ended in 2004 with him and Spike dying in that alleyway against impossible odds

I definitely agree with your first comment - and I think the series would be held in a higher regard if it had ended at s5.

As for your second opinion - I do love Angel and Spike so I'd hate to see them die (for good), but that's what likely happened. As you mentioned - impossible odds. Gunn was fading away and there's only so much Illyria could do.

I do believe AtS deserved at least one more season though. But that's another subject for another time..

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Eh, outside of the hellmouth, the supernatural may be a seasonal phenomena, so a Slayer could fulfill a mission, then resume her life. I mean, I would like to see Lothos go full Morloun and kill every Slayer, but we know that's not the case, nor does it have to be. Indeed, if the Slayer is supposed to be a metaphor for the collective female experience throughout time, some Slayers would have to grow old.

 

[NotASlayer]

Eh, outside of the hellmouth, the supernatural may be a seasonal phenomena, so a Slayer could fulfill a mission, then resume her life. I mean, I would like to see Lothos go full Morloun and kill every Slayer, but we know that's not the case, nor does it have to be. Indeed, if the Slayer is supposed to be a metaphor for the collective female experience throughout time, some Slayers would have to grow old.

Didn't Lothos regularly destroy Watcher records? If so, there could well have been plenty of Slayers who lived longer, whose stories have just been forgotten.

 

[hoponlilmama]

NotASlayer Or maybe S5 should have been S4? Then followed by a different S5. I don't hate S4, but I do consider it to be the weakest season.

Now there's an interesting idea! I personally am quite fond of s4 though.

The question is, if you keep the Glory story (what's the story...), where do you go from there? Or are you thinking about completely scrapping the storylines from s5?

 

[NotASlayer]

Now there's an interesting idea! I personally am quite fond of s4 though.

The question is, if you keep the Glory story (what's the story...), where do you go from there? Or are you thinking about completely scrapping the storylines from s5?

Oops, I meant S4 of Angel rather than Buffy! 😀 S4 of Buffy is one of my favourite seasons, at least for individual episodes. The arc may be weak but there are a lot of excellent episodes.

 

[Btvs fan]

Oops, I meant S4 of Angel rather than Buffy! 😀 S4 of Buffy is one of my favourite seasons, at least for individual episodes. The arc may be weak but there are a lot of excellent episodes.

I completely agree with this about S4 Buffy. The run from E1 to E10 (minus Beer Bad) were genuine quality. The show only really fell off a cliff when they killed Maggie and replaced her with Adam.
Plus I consider the fight scenes peaked in this season and the new team brought in the following year were terrible. That cartwheel kick was ridiculous.
Also the college sets and backdrop looked beautiful. Which was even more noticeable by S7 where they were just in Buffys house and that's it.

Season 4 was a mixed bag for me. The Beast Arc was decent and Angelus in a cage was good and it was great to see Faith again. Plus Dark Wes and Lilah were a great couple.

The flip side is Connor was a failure and the whole Evil Cordy/Jasmin Arc I found boring and didn't make any sense. While Angelus out of the cage was ridiculous.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Oops, I meant S4 of Angel rather than Buffy! 😀 S4 of Buffy is one of my favourite seasons, at least for individual episodes. The arc may be weak but there are a lot of excellent episodes.

Ah, I see! Indeed there are a lot of great episodes in s4.

I completely agree with this about S4 Buffy. The run from E1 to E10 (minus Beer Bad) were genuine quality. The show only really fell off a cliff when they killed Maggie and replaced her with Adam.
Plus I consider the fight scenes peaked in this season and the new team brought in the following year were terrible. That cartwheel kick was ridiculous.
Also the college sets and backdrop looked beautiful. Which was even more noticeable by S7 where they were just in Buffys house and that's it.

I know some fans don't like it, but I think their transition from high school to college was done well. Agree the season fell down with their Big Bad though.

Losing Maggie and losing Oz/Veruca storyline were the low points of s4.

 

[Btvs fan]

Ah, I see! Indeed there are a lot of great episodes in s4.



I know some fans don't like it, but I think their transition from high school to college was done well. Agree the season fell down with their Big Bad though.

Losing Maggie and losing Oz/Veruca storyline were the low points of s4.

I loved the College transition. Its just Joss dropped it the following year.

I'm not to fussed abou losing Oz/Verruca. I think that story looked a bit bland to say the least. Essentially what you saw in Wild At Heart was going to be stretched out ... I don't blame Seth for leaving.

The actress in her Buffering interview a couple of years back said she didn't leave but Joss told her he was killing her off and it was his decision.

 

[NotASlayer]

I completely agree with this about S4 Buffy. The run from E1 to E10 (minus Beer Bad) were genuine quality. The show only really fell off a cliff when they killed Maggie and replaced her with Adam.

CaveSlayer kind of lifts Beer Bad for me. 😀 And another low rated episode, Where the Wild Things Are, has crooning Giles and Spike seeming to step up... and then talking himself into getting a curry instead. Adam was sometimes a cold ham, but I think they decided they didn't want Buffy beating up a human woman, which is why he supplanted Maggie.

Also the college sets and backdrop looked beautiful. Which was even more noticeable by S7 where they were just in Buffys house and that's it.

Agreed. The S7 sets were garbage. In S1-3, you had the library, which was a nicely developed set, in S4 you had the college and, admittedly, Giles' apartment, then in S5 (and S6) the Magic Box was a beautifully constructed set with many tiny details. Then in S7 you had an ordinary house. A yawn-worthy set for the First Yawn.

Season 4 was a mixed bag for me. The Beast Arc was decent and Angelus in a cage was good and it was great to see Faith again. Plus Dark Wes and Lilah were a great couple.

The flip side is Connor was a failure and the whole Evil Cordy/Jasmin Arc I found boring and didn't make any sense. While Angelus out of the cage was ridiculous.

Yes; I don't hate Angel S4 but it was weak in a lot of places.