The Shanshu Prophecy

white avenger

white avenger
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Does the Shanshu Prophecy still exist after Buffy destroyed all magic at the end of Season 8. As of Season 10, all magic is being rewritten, so if that prophecy isn't included in the new text, does it simply cease to exist? Or are we supposed to simply accept the fact that all of the shifting, changing, and rearranging of magic in the Buffyverse simply have no effect on it?
 
Hmm, interesting. I like to think so.

How I think of and perceive the Shanshu is sort of abstract. I view it more as a metaphor than an actual thing, if that makes any sense. I know that it's real and whatnot within the boundaries of the Buffyverse, but I've just, as odd as this sounds, never even really pictured a Shanshu arc. I'm sure one will happen eventually, everything happens eventually in comic books, but when I think of Angel the Shanshu, even though it's there, is sort of delineated from him, if that makes any sense at all.

As for after S8? I don't know. Conceivably, if whoever penned the Shanshu could envision its fulfillment, then they could see the perils it would face as well. That said, I'm a big free will believer, so it's also perfectly believable to me that the actions of people like Buffy and Angel can counteract prophecy.
 
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Who's to say Spike told the truth before, I mean we only have Spike's word on it being Mountain Dew. It could have been the real thing, Spike could have attained the Shanshu, it would be just like Spike to wait for the most inopportune time the wind up Angel. Heck Spike could even say it was even if it wasn't, just to have a go at Angel.

Was it written in stone the benefits of getting the Shanshu?
 
Who's to say Spike told the truth before, I mean we only have Spike's word on it being Mountain Dew. It could have been the real thing, Spike could have attained the Shanshu, it would be just like Spike to wait for the most inopportune time the wind up Angel. Heck Spike could even say it was even if it wasn't, just to have a go at Angel.

Was it written in stone the benefits of getting the Shanshu?

I think that Joss said at some point, somewhere, that the Shanshu was definitely Angel's. If I understand the way that the story went, it was supposed to be given to him for his playing a key role in THE Armageddon. The thing is, there never was any actual assurance that his being made human would be at the end of the battle, as an award, or in the middle of the battle, in order to render him just more human cannon fodder, no Champion, no vampiric powers. For that matter, it was also never made clear just which side would restore his humanity. Given his performance in Season 8, the guy seems to be at least a little bit susceptible to being lured over to the Dark Side without much effort. It's not impossible that he would be fighting for the bad guys when SHTF Day actually comes.

(Just playing devil's advocate here)
 
I was told that Joss' favourite character was Spike, so Joss released the disinformation that Angel was going to be the recipient. Of course that might have been a dream I had and my post was wrong, that could be related to one of the joys about getting old, I just can't remember.
 
I was told that Joss' favourite character was Spike, so Joss released the disinformation that Angel was going to be the recipient. Of course that might have been a dream I had and my post was wrong, that could be related to one of the joys about getting old, I just can't remember.

I know that he supposedly said this:




March 2012 :

Katie Lucas: Who did you like together with Buffy the most: Angel, Riley, or Spike?

Joss Whedon: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it's too "Romeo and Juliet". Which means, as soon as it happens you're bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in "Much Ado About Nothing". I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong. It would have been extraordinarily counter-intuitive, and awesome!

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/spuffy/articles/159975/title/joss-whedon-on-buffy-spike

I don't know if that's what you are referring to or not.
 
It wasn't what I was referring to but I'll take it anyway.
I wonder if all them Bangel fans know that Joss liked a Spike and Buffy thing best?
 
It all depends if destiny/fate is linked with magic. Does the end of magic (or the re-writing of the rules in this case) null a prophecy? Surely the prophecy would've seen the change in the magic rules as well? Or at least the events leading up to them at any rate.

In my mind the whole Shanshu thing is best off forgotten anyway, Angel got out of the whole 'doing it for an end reward' way back in S2. Now he tends to swing between 'doing every little thing I can to make things right' and the 'big, dramatic gesture' that tends to screw things up.

As to if Spike was ever up as the Shanshu recipient, I doubt it.

In fact I doubt he would even want to be human again, he likes being a vampire too much, and he doesn't feel the burning need to atone like Angel does.
If 'Shanshu' meant being with Buffy, then sure, Spike would very much want it but it doesn't, not nesseserily. It means being 'washed clean' of your sins and becoming human- Spike's given no indication that this thinking enters into his mind.

---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

It wasn't what I was referring to but I'll take it anyway.
I wonder if all them Bangel fans know that Joss liked a Spike and Buffy thing best?

I think Joss likes the idea of Buffy/Spike best.
Which is weird considering its well known thar he distanced himself from the show around S6/7 when Spuffy was at its peak.

But what he was saying- as a dramatist he finds in more interesting.

Fair enough I say, Bangels can simply point to the fact that Sarah much prefers Bangel to Spuffy on a lot of levels. I tend to go with the actors opinion, their thoughts and their performances rather than the 'word of law of Joss'. 🙂
 
Fair enough I say, Bangels can simply point to the fact that Sarah much prefers Bangel to Spuffy on a lot of levels. I tend to go with the actors opinion, their thoughts and their performances rather than the 'word of law of Joss'

Which I find odd as It's Whedon's show of course and none of the actors (even Sarah) have that big a say in the plots. 🙂
 
I'm pretty sure Joss doesn't prefer either vampire boyfriend and just likes to screw with the shippers. Stringing them along is all he does with this franchise anymore. You'll find just as many pro-Bangel quotes from him as you do pro-Spuffy. Besides, with Death of the Author in place, his opinions don't matter all that much in the finalized work anyway.

Gellar probably isn't the final authority or anything, but I think she's the second highest after Joss. She had to get inside Buffy's head and bring her to life every week, so I should think she has a pretty damn good idea of what Buffy's character is like.
 
I'm pretty sure Joss doesn't prefer either vampire boyfriend and just likes to screw with the shippers. Stringing them along is all he does with this franchise anymore. You'll find just as many pro-Bangel quotes from him as you do pro-Spuffy. Besides, with Death of the Author in place, his opinions don't matter all that much in the finalized work anyway.

Gellar probably isn't the final authority or anything, but I think she's the second highest after Joss. She had to get inside Buffy's head and bring her to life every week, so I should think she has a pretty damn good idea of what Buffy's character is like.

I agree with this. Joss has changed his mind/been quoted back and forth so many times, as have many other writers.

Sarah, when she finally said something, was very definite and unapologetic in her opnions (they are of course just opinions, not absolutes) but the actor gets inside the skin of the character an awful lot.

I always remember the two times that Sarah, the ultimate professional actress, got geniuinely emotional over a scene on the show (that we know about). They were the sewer break-up in 'The Prom' and just before the 'rewind' in 'IWRY'.

That tells me all I need to know about how she viewed Buffy/Angel. 🙂
 
Which is fine, but she's not one hundred percent responsible for the character on paper. Thats where the writers come in. 🙂
 
Which is fine, but she's not one hundred percent responsible for the character on paper. Thats where the writers come in. 🙂


This is very true, but the writers couldn't come to terms on Spuffy. Espenson and Noxon supported it, but Fury didn't, for example. I'm not sure the writers can be credited with being 100% responsible when they can't even come to a unanimous conclusion.

Joss has the final approval/veto power, and like I said, I honestly don't think he cares all that much anymore, if he ever did on the subject of vampire shipping. Nor should he, honestly.
 
As far as the Shanshu is concerned, being made human for any reason, whether it be reward, curse, Mora demon blood, or spell cast by some witch, wizard, sorcerer, or Gypsy, will do nothing whatsoever to make Angel forget the guilt that he feels for what he, as Angelus, did. He simply won't accept any sort of absolution for it. Now, if the Shanshu returned him to Liam, in Liam's time, with no memory of Angelus OR Angel, like the deal that he made with the Powers in "I Will Remember You," making it all disappear, that might be a different story. Of course, we all know that that will never happen.

As for Spike, not that I think that there would ever be a chance that he is even in the running for the thing, We've seen that the guilt is there, but it isn't the driving force in his existence for him. He can feel it, accept it, and move on. Call that good, bad, or just plain realistic, that's the way he is, and the major reason why the Shanshu means little or nothing to him. As has been pointed out, Spike actually enjoys the fight, the risk, and the challenge of his current state, and he has no desire to lose that. Now, if he were to be made human, mortal, and still retain the powers that he enjoys as a vampire, with none of the weaknesses (visualize a bleached blond Blade with a British accent) he would be perfectly happy. But, once more, we all know that that will never happen.

I think that the Shanshu is a lot like the Loch Ness monster. Angel might get an occasional glimpse of it, he may speak fondly of it on occasion, but it will always be the mystery and wonderment of it that attracts him. The cold, hard fact might be as much disappointment as it is reward.
 
I agree with this. Joss has changed his mind/been quoted back and forth so many times, as have many other writers.

Sarah, when she finally said something, was very definite and unapologetic in her opnions (they are of course just opinions, not absolutes) but the actor gets inside the skin of the character an awful lot.

I always remember the two times that Sarah, the ultimate professional actress, got geniuinely emotional over a scene on the show (that we know about). They were the sewer break-up in 'The Prom' and just before the 'rewind' in 'IWRY'.

That tells me all I need to know about how she viewed Buffy/Angel. 🙂

That is 110% what it is, Sarah was asked who she liked better, she said Angel - but she wasn't asked who she thought Buffy would end up with, she gets asked who she 'hopes' she would. It's all just an actors opinion.
I know plenty of people that have used that quote from James, where he said he played Spike like he was in love with Buffy from the very first scene, as canon back up that Spike loved Buffy.
I haven't seen someone say Sarah thinks Buffy and Angel should be together, so they are, but I have seen people say James played the character as loving Buffy so Spike loved Buffy from the start.
Which by the same logic, would apply to Sarah, she says I Love You to spike in the final episode, but if she thinks Buffy loved Angel not Spike that should have the same effect on fans right?
Maybe thats why people dont believe it, there wasn't the same emotional umph behind it, as the actress didn't believe it?
James has also said he doesn't think Buffy loved Spike and he believes Angel is better suited for her, but fans just pick and choose what parts to believe.

Which is why it's all irrelevant, an actor liking the same people you do is fun, but means nothing unless you believe that an actors thought process matters - but in which case if you think Spike loved Buffy from the start, surely Sarahs feelings should matter for any Spike/Buffy stuff.

Even if Whedon said he wanted Buffy and Spike together, it's irrelevant. Just cuz he wants it, doesn't mean he'd do it in the best interest of the character. He clearly liked Tara, and like Tara and Willow, yet he had no problem killing Tara for the sake of the story. His opinions and the actual BtVS story are very different things.


I dont think we know enough about the Shanshu to know if it still exists. If it is Angels, and it's attached to him, just waiting for a certain moment to be activated, presumably it still exists as it's within him like how the slayer power still exists within the slayers.

If it's out in the open waiting to be activated on whoever achieves it, it might be different now.
Is a prophecy magic? We dont know.

Since the prophecy already exists presumably it can't be changed.

But if the vampire becomes human once the prophecy is fulfilled maybe that is by magic, in which case the actual transformation would be subject to the new rules.

Maybe now, Angel can Shanshu become human but still retain his powers, being human doesn't have to have the same meaning now.
 
Would Angel or Spike get the Shanshu?
The Shanshu itself only said that the vampire with a soul would get it, it didn't specify who.
Thing is, what would be the effect on a human who used to be a vampire? How would a human react knowing he/she used to be a demon?
Anya didn't fare to well.
Given what a human's reaction might be, the Shanshu may well have been a curse.
 
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