The Slayer Activation Spell

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm a little confused as to why some are using the empowerment spell as "now they have a choice". It's not really THAT different. Buffy had a choice to slay or not to slay. She's endowed with these Slayer powers, and at least initially it's just her, but she uses them to fight evil because she's a good person and feels the weight of the responsibility that comes with knowing you can make a difference.

But that's Buffy. If Faith had been the next one called ahead of Buffy, she could have easily just elected not to fight evil and do whatever she felt like, just as Buffy could have. It's a personal choice, dreams and all. The trouble is that instead of one (or two, give or take a fracturing in the line) girl being confronted with an awful choice like that (and let's not spin it here, being given that power is grossly unfair. They can't turn the power down, and while they can walk away from Slaying, they do so with the knowledge that people will die because of that decision. It's a horrible catch-22), thousands are.

Buffy (and Faith) always had a choice to continue slaying or not. It wasn't, as they say, a good choice, but it was a decision. Now thousands have to make the same call. It's difficult to say "let someone else handle it (meaning Buffy and her army)" when you have persistent prophetic dreams about terrible things poised to happen, and you know that not acting will, if not cause then allow, people to die.

I completely disagree, Buffy and Faith never had a choice. Both have been dragged back into that life. Buffy went up against the Master not cuz she had to but becasue she felt it was right, becasue she was the only one that could.
Other girls dont have to do that becasue someone else who feels thats what they want to do with their life can do it.

The fact there are thousands of Slayers alleviates that guilt.

Also potentials have the dreams, and we dont know how they work, Buffy is shown to have like 3 prophecy dreams, so it's not like she's having nightmares every night. And both dreams were to do with exactly were she was, or something relating directly to her, she wasn't getting prophecy dreams about people being killed in Canada or any of the apocalypses Angel faced, so it's quite possible, if the girls chooses not to fight they wont have dreams as they aren't in a scenario to get them, and the dream will go to a slayer that has decided to fight. The fact that Buffy doesn't get dreams for any and all apocalypse stuff, means there is some external logic to when/why she gets them.

And if there is guilt for choosing not to fight, then there is just as much guilt the other way. Had the scoobies done a survey of potentials and asked them to take the power and choose to fight, or veto and leave one of them stuck with it. If you choose to veto and the person sitting next to you gets burdened with it, why would you be any less guilty then if you had the power and chose not to use it.

You seem to forget these girls are already chosen, they are not normal people who suddenly had this inflicted on them by the scoobies, they were already marked as potentials, they were already different.

It would be a different story had the spell done that to 1800 girls who might not have been potentials.

 

[Xin Rong]

I completely disagree, Buffy and Faith never had a choice. Both have been dragged back into that life. Buffy went up against the Master not cuz she had to but becasue she felt it was right, becasue she was the only one that could.
Other girls dont have to do that becasue someone else who feels thats what they want to do with their life can do it.

The fact there are thousands of Slayers alleviates that guilt.

Also potentials have the dreams, and we dont know how they work, Buffy is shown to have like 3 prophecy dreams, so it's not like she's having nightmares every night. And both dreams were to do with exactly were she was, or something relating directly to her, she wasn't getting prophecy dreams about people being killed in Canada or any of the apocalypses Angel faced, so it's quite possible, if the girls chooses not to fight they wont have dreams as they aren't in a scenario to get them, and the dream will go to a slayer that has decided to fight. The fact that Buffy doesn't get dreams for any and all apocalypse stuff, means there is some external logic to when/why she gets them.

And if there is guilt for choosing not to fight, then there is just as much guilt the other way. Had the scoobies done a survey of potentials and asked them to take the power and choose to fight, or veto and leave one of them stuck with it. If you choose to veto and the person sitting next to you gets burdened with it, why would you be any less guilty then if you had the power and chose not to use it.

You seem to forget these girls are already chosen, they are not normal people who suddenly had this inflicted on them by the scoobies, they were already marked as potentials, they were already different.

It would be a different story had the spell done that to 1800 girls who might not have been potentials.

Buffy and Faith never had a choice. Both have been dragged back into that life. Buffy went up against the Master not cuz she had to but becasue she felt it was right, becasue she was the only one that could.

This statement confuses me, are you saying Buffy chose to fight the master because it was the right thing to do, or because she was the only one that could? One makes sense with the Buffy never had a choice argument, and the other doesn't?

The fact there are thousands of Slayers alleviates that guilt.

It reduces the guilt, but it does not alleviate it, as you said these girls have already been chosen to fight the forces of darkness, so just because others can, doesn't mean they are guilt free. If Buffy stopped when Kendra came, would she have been free of guilt?

You seem to forget these girls are already chosen, they are not normal people who suddenly had this inflicted on them by the scoobies, they were already marked as potentials, they were already different.

This is kind of conjecture, we have no idea what makes a potential a potential, we don't know if the potentials are chosen, or if it's just that certain girls are somehow born with the capability to become a slayer, it could be a gene or circumstantial, we have no idea. The only thing we know is that a slayer is chosen, but the very fact that there are lots of potentials seems to suggest they aren't chosen, if you only need one girl to be a slayer, it seems a waste to choose thousands to become potentials?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This statement confuses me, are you saying Buffy chose to fight the master because it was the right thing to do, or because she was the only one that could? One makes sense with the Buffy never had a choice argument, and the other doesn't?

Both, she quits being the slayer because she doesn't want to do it, but she goes because the alternative is someone else goes who doesn't have superior strength, so she has to.

It reduces the guilt, but it does not alleviate it, as you said these girls have already been chosen to fight the forces of darkness, so just because others can, doesn't mean they are guilt free. If Buffy stopped when Kendra came, would she have been free of guilt?

I dont think Kendra is the same thing, because there is only 2 of them, had Buffy quit, she'd be leaving 100% of the responsibility to Kendra. If some newly activated slayer decides to quit she's not forcing 100% of the responsibility onto 1 person, she's leaving it to a massive group that choose to fight, and they dont fight alone, it seems all the new slayers operate in squads, so they aren't alone. Girl doesn't want to fight some vampire king in her town, grand leave it up to a squad of 7 trained slayers, fighting together, supporting one another lead by Robin, Vi or Rona.
That is nothing like what it was before the spell.

This is kind of conjecture, we have no idea what makes a potential a potential, we don't know if the potentials are chosen, or if it's just that certain girls are somehow born with the capability to become a slayer, it could be a gene or circumstantial, we have no idea. The only thing we know is that a slayer is chosen, but the very fact that there are lots of potentials seems to suggest they aren't chosen, if you only need one girl to be a slayer, it seems a waste to choose thousands to become potentials?

Willows spell activates them as soon as they become potentials. I would say they are born potentials but can't fulfil that potential till they come of age (whatever way the original spell determines that). I dont think girls are evaluated in some way before being chosen as potentials, Dana was messed up before the age she could have become a potential, yet she still became one. That, for me, suggests it's from birth, same way Kendra was found as a child.
I dont think Slayers are destined, they aren't picked to definitely become slayers, but any potential, who've come of age could become a slayer, and the spell seems to make a large number of potentials to give itself the best chance of survival for the line of slayers.

 

[Xin Rong]

Both, she quits being the slayer because she doesn't want to do it, but she goes because the alternative is someone else goes who doesn't have superior strength, so she has to.



I dont think Kendra is the same thing, because there is only 2 of them, had Buffy quit, she'd be leaving 100% of the responsibility to Kendra. If some newly activated slayer decides to quit she's not forcing 100% of the responsibility onto 1 person, she's leaving it to a massive group that choose to fight, and they dont fight alone, it seems all the new slayers operate in squads, so they aren't alone. Girl doesn't want to fight some vampire king in her town, grand leave it up to a squad of 7 trained slayers, fighting together, supporting one another lead by Robin, Vi or Rona.
That is nothing like what it was before the spell.




Willows spell activates them as soon as they become potentials. I would say they are born potentials but can't fulfil that potential till they come of age (whatever way the original spell determines that). I dont think girls are evaluated in some way before being chosen as potentials, Dana was messed up before the age she could have become a potential, yet she still became one. That, for me, suggests it's from birth, same way Kendra was found as a child.
I dont think Slayers are destined, they aren't picked to definitely become slayers, but any potential, who've come of age could become a slayer, and the spell seems to make a large number of potentials to give itself the best chance of survival for the line of slayers.

So aren't you saying Buffy made a choice, but had no choice?

How do we know that Willow's spell activates them as soon as they become potentials?

Also, I think your making a lot of assumptions of how the spell works and are presenting them as fact.

If you don't think that the Slayers are destined, then how do you explain the numerous prophecies about Buffy and other slayers that we encounter throughout the show. If they weren't destined to become slayers then how could there be any kind of prophecy about them, I know propheices are relatively flimsy in the verse, but some are there, and Buffy is involved in quite a few.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

So aren't you saying Buffy made a choice, but had no choice?

No I'm saying she didn't have a choice, because the only other option was for Giles to go in there. Now if a slayer decides not to fight, another slayer can take her plan, not a normal person.

How do we know that Willow's spell activates them as soon as they become potentials?

We see it in the comics, Willows spell is always active. It wasn't just all the potentials that were potentials at the time of Chosen that were activated, any of the girls that come of age now, immediately become activated. Then someone from the scoobies goes to meet them and explain everything.

Also, I think your making a lot of assumptions of how the spell works and are presenting them as fact.

Everything I've suggested is off canon stuff from the series and the comics.

If you don't think that the Slayers are destined, then how do you explain the numerous prophecies about Buffy and other slayers that we encounter throughout the show. If they weren't destined to become slayers then how could there be any kind of prophecy about them, I know propheices are relatively flimsy in the verse, but some are there, and Buffy is involved in quite a few.

The Slayer can be destined, but not the girls that are the slayer. The prophecy didn't say Buffy would face the master, it said the slayer will fight the master, Buffy just happened to be the slayer at the time.

 

[Xin Rong]

No I'm saying she didn't have a choice, because the only other option was for Giles to go in there. Now if a slayer decides not to fight, another slayer can take her plan, not a normal person.

We see it in the comics, Willows spell is always active. It wasn't just all the potentials that were potentials at the time of Chosen that were activated, any of the girls that come of age now, immediately become activated. Then someone from the scoobies goes to meet them and explain everything.



Everything I've suggested is off canon stuff from the series and the comics.



The Slayer can be destined, but not the girls that are the slayer. The prophecy didn't say Buffy would face the master, it said the slayer will fight the master, Buffy just happened to be the slayer at the time.

Where in the comics? I have read them all, but not as often as I watch the show so my knowledge is more finite?

Again, the slayer can be destined, but not the girls that are the slayer is conjecture, unless that is also retconned in the comics?

Do you not think that Buffy was destined to be the slayer? Surely her unique circumstances led her to Sunnydale? If someone in Antartica had been called instead of Buffy in LA, would she have been there to fight the master?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Where in the comics? I have read them all, but not as often as I watch the show so my knowledge is more finite?

We see it twice. In The Chain (S8#5), a girl is activated and sees Andrew and Vi's cheesy commercial on the TV and goes to meet Rona. The fact that the commercial is on the air means it's not right after Chosen.

The second is in Harmonic Divergence (S8#21) We see a girl in a girl gang deciding she wants to quit, when she tells the leader she tries to fight her and during the fight she gets her powers. She sees the commercial but ignores it, and a week later Andrew shows up to tell her about it and the fact Dawn in a centaur means it's not just after chosen.

The spell was definitely ongoing, wasn't a one time deal.

Again, the slayer can be destined, but not the girls that are the slayer is conjecture, unless that is also retconned in the comics?

It doesn't need to be, what in the show has indicated a particular prophecy was about Buffy and not just about any slayer?

Do you not think that Buffy was destined to be the slayer? Surely her unique circumstances led her to Sunnydale? If someone in Antartica had been called instead of Buffy in LA, would she have been there to fight the master?

Presumably if someone was called in Antarctica, just like how Buffy wasn't called in Sunnydale, something could have intervened and sent that slayer to Sunnydale.
Or like how Kendras watcher sent her to Sunnydale based on a prophecy.
Those apocalyptic signs from Phrophecy Girl were happening all over the world, if the Slayer had been in Antarctica, her watcher might have seen the signs ans sent her to Sunnydale

I dont think Buffy was destined to be a Slayer. She just happened to be a slayer and she was lucky she's stubborn and had friends. Her friends helping her out saved her not destiny.

 

[Xin Rong]

We see it twice. In The Chain (S8#5), a girl is activated and sees Andrew and Vi's cheesy commercial on the TV and goes to meet Rona. The fact that the commercial is on the air means it's not right after Chosen.

The second is in Harmonic Divergence (S8#21) We see a girl in a girl gang deciding she wants to quit, when she tells the leader she tries to fight her and during the fight she gets her powers. She sees the commercial but ignores it, and a week later Andrew shows up to tell her about it and the fact Dawn in a centaur means it's not just after chosen.

The spell was definitely ongoing, wasn't a one time deal.


It doesn't need to be, what in the show has indicated a particular prophecy was about Buffy and not just about any slayer?



Presumably if someone was called in Antarctica, just like how Buffy wasn't called in Sunnydale, something could have intervened and sent that slayer to Sunnydale.
Or like how Kendras watcher sent her to Sunnydale based on a prophecy.
Those apocalyptic signs from Phrophecy Girl were happening all over the world, if the Slayer had been in Antarctica, her watcher might have seen the signs ans sent her to Sunnydale

I dont think Buffy was destined to be a Slayer. She just happened to be a slayer and she was lucky she's stubborn and had friends. Her friends helping her out saved her not destiny.

Ok, I cede the potential thing, although that is interesting, is being chosen possible tied into puberty or something similar then?

I would go with the harvest, the signs were there for the master rising at the end of season 1, and for Becoming part 1 and 2. But, they were not there for the harvest, if Buffy had not been there then the master would have risen then, and not when he was prophesied to rise.

Also, the whole twilight prophecy seemed to be about Buffy, would a slayer who didn't have Buffy's unique circumstances and friends been able to complete that particular prophecy?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ok, I cede the potential thing, although that is interesting, is being chosen possible tied into puberty or something similar then?

Well the slayer mentions it's her 16th birthday, which would be pretty late for puberty in a girl.
I think the idea is, either it's the fact she's 16 or the fact thats it's the day she decided to quit the gang, she matured as a person and was eligible to get the power. The girl with the bat in Chosen was definitely younger then 16 right? I've always thought of it as the power decides the girl is ready, not just a set thing like hitting puberty or a certain age.

I would go with the harvest, the signs were there for the master rising at the end of season 1, and for Becoming part 1 and 2. But, they were not there for the harvest, if Buffy had not been there then the master would have risen then, and not when he was prophesied to rise.

There were signs for the Harvest, Buffy has dreams, which any slayer could have had, and Giles mentions Giles: "The signs, as far as I can tell, point to a crucial mystical upheaval, very soon. Days. Possibly less."

Also, the whole twilight prophecy seemed to be about Buffy, would a slayer who didn't have Buffy's unique circumstances and friends been able to complete that particular prophecy?

Yes. It was Buffy who made herself eligible for the prophecy,

Giles: "For thousands of years, the universe has been watching, waiting to find one Slayer, just one, who measures up to its test. Century after century, they all meet the same fate. [...] Until Buffy Summers came along and did the one thing that no Slayer, no Slayer in history, had ever done before."

Willow: "She shared the power."

There was no set requirements to be the Twilight slayer. If there was then Buffy giving all the slayers the slayer power was always going to happen and the entire debate is moot.

 

[Xin Rong]

Well the slayer mentions it's her 16th birthday, which would be pretty late for puberty in a girl.
I think the idea is, either it's the fact she's 16 or the fact thats it's the day she decided to quit the gang, she matured as a person and was eligible to get the power. The girl with the bat in Chosen was definitely younger then 16 right? I've always thought of it as the power decides the girl is ready, not just a set thing like hitting puberty or a certain age.



There were signs for the Harvest, Buffy has dreams, which any slayer could have had, and Giles mentions Giles: "The signs, as far as I can tell, point to a crucial mystical upheaval, very soon. Days. Possibly less."



Yes. It was Buffy who made herself eligible for the prophecy,

Giles: "For thousands of years, the universe has been watching, waiting to find one Slayer, just one, who measures up to its test. Century after century, they all meet the same fate. [...] Until Buffy Summers came along and did the one thing that no Slayer, no Slayer in history, had ever done before."

Willow: "She shared the power."

There was no set requirements to be the Twilight slayer. If there was then Buffy giving all the slayers the slayer power was always going to happen and the entire debate is moot.

16? Aren't there many instances of younger slayers, 'the younger the better'?

Yes, Buffy had the dreams, but her dreams have always been specific to her situation, where and when she is, so in order to have these dreams, she had be to there, Kendra didn't have dreams about Acathla, her watcher read signs or whatever.

Also, Giles discovered the signs of the harvest, because Buffy was there, if she had not have been there then neither would Giles, he was there for her.

Yes, for thousands of years they waited for a slayer who could fulfill the twilight thing, but then did it not also have to be a slayer connected to the vampire with a soul, aka Buffy. She was the slayer who shared the power, but in reality she didn't, Willow did. It seems unlikely that any random slayer would encounter a vampire with a soul and a uber-witch with the power to change the rules, it seems to me that it had to be Buffy.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

16? Aren't there many instances of younger slayers, 'the younger the better'?

Yeah, wasn't Buffy 15? Thast why I think it's something else not age/puberty.

Yes, Buffy had the dreams, but her dreams have always been specific to her situation, where and when she is, so in order to have these dreams, she had be to there, Kendra didn't have dreams about Acathla, her watcher read signs or whatever.

Also, Giles discovered the signs of the harvest, because Buffy was there, if she had not have been there then neither would Giles, he was there for her.

Thats what I was saying about the new Slayers, the dreams aren't an issue. We dont know what would have happened had another slayer been active instead of Buffy, she might have been sent to sunnydale, she might not have been The Master might have risen, but just like in the Wish, Buffys other watcher sends her to Sunnydale to shut the Master down, another watcher could do the same with another slayer. The master wasn't an apocalypse, his reach according to The Wish only stretched as far as Sunnydale.

Yes, for thousands of years they waited for a slayer who could fulfill the twilight thing, but then did it not also have to be a slayer connected to the vampire with a soul, aka Buffy. She was the slayer who shared the power, but in reality she didn't, Willow did. It seems unlikely that any random slayer would encounter a vampire with a soul and a uber-witch with the power to change the rules, it seems to me that it had to be Buffy.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Angel had nothing to do with Twilight. The only reason why Angel is involved with Twilight is cuz the universe deemed him Buffys soulmate. It had nothing to do with Angel having a soul, and none of the prophecy around Twilight had to do with Angel, the prophecy is all Slayer related. Nothing at all on Angels side.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

But the source of the power doesn't matter in that question. If you were asked to choose between being given the power and then being able to choose what to do with your life, or choosing not to get the power but you might be cursed with it and then have no choice. Why would anyone say no to that? If you say no there is a possibility you'll get the power next anyway and there is no choice then, at least if you choose to take the power, you can choose to use it or not.

If I'm cursed with it I still have a choice, like Faith. She chose to stop hunting for a couple of years and she was fine, right? The world did not end. So I say no. I don't want to be a Frankenstein's monster, a freak fueled by a piece of a dead demon. It's crazy. I'm completely fine with who I am and this power is of no use to me. No, thanks.

You don't know that.

But I do. Soledad, the slayer who tries to dust Harmony refuses to join Buffy's organization. Nobody offers her any services or provides her with an emergency contact option, she doesn't even get a handbook.

[MENTION=12171]Ethan Reigns[/MENTION]

If someone offered me superpowers with these terms and conditions, I would consider myself lucky.

In Buffyverse power always comes with a price. All I'm saying, it might not be worth it.

---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------
[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

Both have been dragged back into that life.

Faith wasn't dragged back. It was her choice.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

[MENTION=12171]Ethan Reigns[/MENTION]

In Buffyverse power always comes with a price. All I'm saying, it might not be worth it.

Power may have a price, but Season 7 opens with potentials around the world being hunted and killed by bringers and not having the power to fight back. For them, not having the power was the thing that got them killed and they would have been thankful for any extra advantage they could have had. Later in the season, the potentials captured a bringer because they thought the bringers were the weak link in the First's plan and it would give them some insight into what that plan was. So the bringers, who had done most of the killing, became manageable.

There is nothing saying that the First could not rise again, maybe with a different set of soldiers than the Turok Han, maybe some demons who were even more resilient. Maybe the world would face another Glory with the will and power to end the world. Power may have a price but in this case, the price was not conscription into the slayer army. The potentials could consider a university education, something that Buffy was the first to have, leaving the slaying to those who wanted it more.

They may partake of slaying that had always led to early death, but by increasing the numbers and giving slayers the opportunity to opt out either permanently or for a time, the life expectancy could rise to almost the normal level. There were other hellmouths and "The Wish 3ABB09" showed what would have happened if the slayer had been late to Sunnydale and by extension, what would go on in other hellmouths in the absence of a slayer.

 

[Robb Stark]

I completely disagree, Buffy and Faith never had a choice. Both have been dragged back into that life. Buffy went up against the Master not cuz she had to but becasue she felt it was right, becasue she was the only one that could.
Other girls dont have to do that becasue someone else who feels thats what they want to do with their life can do it.

Either could have stopped slaying whenever they wanted. And if presented with a scenario that couldn't be avoided without slaying, a vampire jumping right in front of you or whatever, then how is that not the case with the newly activated Slayers, regardless of how many there are? What's to stop them from "getting dragged back in"?

The fact there are thousands of Slayers alleviates that guilt.

No it does not. If I see an only lady have a heart attack, and then proceed to do nothing because "hey, that's what the doctors are for", then I'm a pretty terrible person. "With great power comes great responsibility" is not just something Spider-Man says all the time, it's a pretty true sense of being.

Also potentials have the dreams, and we dont know how they work, Buffy is shown to have like 3 prophecy dreams, so it's not like she's having nightmares every night. And both dreams were to do with exactly were she was, or something relating directly to her, she wasn't getting prophecy dreams about people being killed in Canada or any of the apocalypses Angel faced, so it's quite possible, if the girls chooses not to fight they wont have dreams as they aren't in a scenario to get them, and the dream will go to a slayer that has decided to fight. The fact that Buffy doesn't get dreams for any and all apocalypse stuff, means there is some external logic to when/why she gets them.

It is by no means canon that all potentials have Slayer dreams. Out of curiosity, and I'm sure I've just missed something, when is it said that any Potentials have Slayer dreams? I can't remember that.

And, there's a big difference between having those dreams and not having the physical power to do anything about it, and having them and having the power. It is not fair to do that someone.

And if there is guilt for choosing not to fight, then there is just as much guilt the other way. Had the scoobies done a survey of potentials and asked them to take the power and choose to fight, or veto and leave one of them stuck with it. If you choose to veto and the person sitting next to you gets burdened with it, why would you be any less guilty then if you had the power and chose not to use it.

This doesn't really have much to do with what we're talking about. The vast, vast majority of girls activated in "Chosen" probably had no idea they were even Potentials to begin with.

You seem to forget these girls are already chosen, they are not normal people who suddenly had this inflicted on them by the scoobies, they were already marked as potentials, they were already different.

It would be a different story had the spell done that to 1800 girls who might not have been potentials.

The have the potential to become Slayers, yes. Key word there however, is "potential". Of the 1800 or whatever activated, you're honestly telling me you think that's not a huge alteration to their lives because they were "already chosen"? Really?

---------------------------------------

And no one has even mentioned yet that endowing potentially thousands of 11/12-18 year old people with devastatingly powerful abilities might not be the most responsible or ethical thing to do.

 

[Xin Rong]

Yeah, wasn't Buffy 15? Thast why I think it's something else not age/puberty.



Thats what I was saying about the new Slayers, the dreams aren't an issue. We dont know what would have happened had another slayer been active instead of Buffy, she might have been sent to sunnydale, she might not have been The Master might have risen, but just like in the Wish, Buffys other watcher sends her to Sunnydale to shut the Master down, another watcher could do the same with another slayer. The master wasn't an apocalypse, his reach according to The Wish only stretched as far as Sunnydale.

Yes, for thousands of years they waited for a slayer who could fulfill the twilight thing, but then did it not also have to be a slayer connected to the vampire with a soul, aka Buffy. She was the slayer who shared the power, but in reality she didn't, Willow did. It seems unlikely that any random slayer would encounter a vampire with a soul and a uber-witch with the power to change the rules, it seems to me that it had to be Buffy.

Nope. Angel had nothing to do with Twilight. The only reason why Angel is involved with Twilight is cuz the universe deemed him Buffys soulmate. It had nothing to do with Angel having a soul, and none of the prophecy around Twilight had to do with Angel, the prophecy is all Slayer related. Nothing at all on Angels side.[/QUOTE]

I thought the prophecy was the best vampire and the best slayer? Why was Angel needed then?

What about my Willow point, surely the slayer needed Willow? If Buffy had not been called then Willow would have died, as per the wish episode, so the potentials would not have been activated?

Also, the reason for the potentials needing to be activated was also only needed because of the actions of Buffy and Willow, the first would not have attacked the slayer line, if they had not made it vulnerable, which means the twilight thing could not have happened if it were not for Buffy?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]


If I'm cursed with it I still have a choice, like Faith. She chose to stop hunting for a couple of years and she was fine, right? The world did not end. So I say no. I don't want to be a Frankenstein's monster, a freak fueled by a piece of a dead demon. It's crazy. I'm completely fine with who I am and this power is of no use to me. No, thanks.

She chose to stop hunting and there was another slayer out there to do the job. Plus Faith is a special case because there was two slayers, what would happen if a Slayer pre-Buffy decided she wanted to quit? I don't think the Watchers Council had a wet works team for nothing.

Faith does some bad stuff, the Watchers council decide to step in, you dont think if a slayer decides to quit they wouldn't step in?

But I do. Soledad, the slayer who tries to dust Harmony refuses to join Buffy's organization. Nobody offers her any services or provides her with an emergency contact option, she doesn't even get a handbook.

That is not a fair example. She sees the add, doesn't respond, they send someone to her she refuses, then that night she goes after Harmony. It's literly hours later, they aren't going to hound her for hours, Andrew could have been planning to come back the next day. To judge the scenario on a story that happened over like 12 hours isn't a proper example.

Faith wasn't dragged back. It was her choice.

Faiths choice was to be in jail. Wesley went to her and told her they needed help, yes she chose to break out, but it's not like she was sitting in prision and then just decided to leave and start fighting evil. The only reason she did was becasue Angel needed help, then she was pulled into the Sunnydale fight.

Either could have stopped slaying whenever they wanted. And if presented with a scenario that couldn't be avoided without slaying, a vampire jumping right in front of you or whatever, then how is that not the case with the newly activated Slayers, regardless of how many there are? What's to stop them from "getting dragged back in"?

I dont see a point here. If a vampire just happens to pop up in front of them, I'd think they'd be grateful to have the power, since the other option is they don't have the power and they die.
If they just happen to see a vampire attacking someone else, again if they are the type of person to intervene, then they should be grateful they have the power.
Slaying a random vampire that literly comes after them isn't being dragged back in. Vampires don't seek the slayer out, they can't detect slayers or smell them, they can't identify them any other way but by reputation, so unless a Slayer is actually slaying and building a reputation vampires aren't going to see her out.

No it does not. If I see an only lady have a heart attack, and then proceed to do nothing because "hey, that's what the doctors are for", then I'm a pretty terrible person. "With great power comes great responsibility" is not just something Spider-Man says all the time, it's a pretty true sense of being.

Yeah if you see it, you might be entitled to help, but what if you dont see it?
I'm sure there are old ladies having heart attacks right now, are you out wandering the streets hoping to run into one so you can help? No.
It's the same with slayers, they know the demons are out there, but if it's not the life they choose it's no different then all of us staying home while people are in the streets getting mugged, or there are wars going on. Just becasue it's happening doesn't mean you have to engage it.
With shared power comes less responsibility and more choice.

It is by no means canon that all potentials have Slayer dreams. Out of curiosity, and I'm sure I've just missed something, when is it said that any Potentials have Slayer dreams? I can't remember that.

And, there's a big difference between having those dreams and not having the physical power to do anything about it, and having them and having the power. It is not fair to do that someone.

I can't remember where I thought that from, and can't go looking for a source at the moment. But once again your putting WAY to much stock in the dreams, but has 3 dreams over the course of 7 years, it's not a very power. It's not like Cordys visions that set up the mission, the slayer dreams only give the slayer more insight in their current mission. We've never seen a dream that wasn't directly related to an even happening at that time.

This doesn't really have much to do with what we're talking about. The vast, vast majority of girls activated in "Chosen" probably had no idea they were even Potentials to begin with.

It is completely related to what your talking about. If you think the scoobies were reckless and forced the power on girls that didn't want it, you have no way to back that up, a case could be easily made to show a scenario were the girls would want it.
Doesn't matter if they knew before or not, if the scoobies gave them the info and then asked them to vote, the example still stands.

The have the potential to become Slayers, yes. Key word there however, is "potential". Of the 1800 or whatever activated, you're honestly telling me you think that's not a huge alteration to their lives because they were "already chosen"? Really?

Course it is, but for the ones that choose not to use it, what's the big deal? Like I said demons dont seek them out if they aren't fighting, the dreams only seem to happen if the slayer is directly related to something. the girl has increased strength and speed, but it's not like a comical strength, were when she opens a car door she accidentally rips the door off.

And no one has even mentioned yet that endowing potentially thousands of 11/12-18 year old people with devastatingly powerful abilities might not be the most responsible or ethical thing to do.

It wasn't, but your completely ignoring the fact that they went and found all 1800 girls activated, so it's moot.

I thought the prophecy was the best vampire and the best slayer? Why was Angel needed then?

Nope, absolutely nothing about Angel. The other person didn't have to be a vampire, it needed a ying to her yang and the universe saw Angel as that. But it was nothing to do with Angel, or his being a vampire, or his soul. It was just that the universe saw him as her counterpart.
Which kinda makes sense based on what happened, they were both given brand new powers, making their previous slayerness and vampireness irrelevant, it equalled them to being the same, had Angel been a human the same thing would have happened, he wouldn't have needed the vampire strength.
Twilight just needed the other person to be the person Buffy loved, to hook her in, someone she loved, so it would lead them to having sex and giving birth to Twilight. Love was connection to Angel, not him being a vampire with a soul.

What about my Willow point, surely the slayer needed Willow? If Buffy had not been called then Willow would have died, as per the wish episode, so the potentials would not have been activated?

Also, the reason for the potentials needing to be activated was also only needed because of the actions of Buffy and Willow, the first would not have attacked the slayer line, if they had not made it vulnerable, which means the twilight thing could not have happened if it were not for Buffy?

But the activation spell wasn't an automatic activation of Twilight, it didn't have to be this moment, it could have been any number of things. Buffy happened to have friends, unlike previous slayers, they helped keep her alive and Willow happened to become a witch and was able to do the spell.

Had Buffy not come to sunnydale, Willow died then Buffy died and the slayer line moved on, 50 or 100 slayers later one of them could have done something that Twilight deemed good enough for that slayer to be chosen as the bringer of Twilight.

Nothing in Twilight was fixed, it didn't have to be Buffy, it didn't have to involve Willow, it didn't have to be Angel and it didn't have to be a slayer activating all the potentials.
Twilight was a test, once Twilight saw a slayer that was good enough to fulfil it's conditions it would pick her.

Prophecy and destiny aren't the same thing for me. The prophecy was Buffy would fight the master, but we know that wasn't correct, if Buffy had decided not to go down to the master that prophecy wouldn't have come true. She wasn't destined to go down there, she chose to go down there and because she did she fulfilled the requirements of that prophecy. Exact same situation with Twilight, she wasn't destined to activate the potentials, she chose to and it fulfils the Twilight prophecy ( a slayer that does something big - which is vague so it can apply to a number of things ). Had she not gone down to the Master or not activated the slayers, another slayer could have done either of those things (or something else big in the case of Twilight) as it just had to be a slayer not necessarily Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

Just to pick up on one point without touching the overall arguement, when Faith busted out of jail it was to help Angel. But then Willow asks for her help and she pretty much volunteers to continue the fight in Sunnydale, I wouldn't class that as being pulled back in. Faith tells Buffy she 'didn't give it that much thought' when told that she was needed. I don't think that's reluctance- I think she chose to fight, just like Buffy.

But of course it makes it easier to choose if there are thousands of girls, not just two. But the choice is still there. Faith chose to atone for her crimes/get mentally more stable for three years, (actually 25 to life) rather than slay. And she seems the better for it. 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Just to pick up on one point without touching the overall arguement, when Faith busted out of jail it was to help Angel. But then Willow asks for her help and she pretty much volunteers to continue the fight in Sunnydale, I wouldn't class that as being pulled back in. Faith tells Buffy she 'didn't give it that much thought' when told that she was needed. I don't think that's reluctance- I think she chose to fight, just like Buffy.

But of course it makes it easier to choose if there are thousands of girls, not just two. But the choice is still there. Faith chose to atone for her crimes/get mentally more stable for three years, (actually 25 to life) rather than slay. And she seems the better for it. 🙂

But how much choice is involved in, "hey me and like 20 teenage girls are going up against the embodiment of evil, it's basically the end of the world and we need a little help".

Yes she definitely chose to fight, but it's not the same type of just choosing to fight for the sake of it, she's choosing to fight becasue she's needed.

 

[Xin Rong]

She chose to stop hunting and there was another slayer out there to do the job. Plus Faith is a special case because there was two slayers, what would happen if a Slayer pre-Buffy decided she wanted to quit? I don't think the Watchers Council had a wet works team for nothing.

Faith does some bad stuff, the Watchers council decide to step in, you dont think if a slayer decides to quit they wouldn't step in?



That is not a fair example. She sees the add, doesn't respond, they send someone to her she refuses, then that night she goes after Harmony. It's literly hours later, they aren't going to hound her for hours, Andrew could have been planning to come back the next day. To judge the scenario on a story that happened over like 12 hours isn't a proper example.



Faiths choice was to be in jail. Wesley went to her and told her they needed help, yes she chose to break out, but it's not like she was sitting in prision and then just decided to leave and start fighting evil. The only reason she did was becasue Angel needed help, then she was pulled into the Sunnydale fight.




I dont see a point here. If a vampire just happens to pop up in front of them, I'd think they'd be grateful to have the power, since the other option is they don't have the power and they die.
If they just happen to see a vampire attacking someone else, again if they are the type of person to intervene, then they should be grateful they have the power.
Slaying a random vampire that literly comes after them isn't being dragged back in. Vampires don't seek the slayer out, they can't detect slayers or smell them, they can't identify them any other way but by reputation, so unless a Slayer is actually slaying and building a reputation vampires aren't going to see her out.



Yeah if you see it, you might be entitled to help, but what if you dont see it?
I'm sure there are old ladies having heart attacks right now, are you out wandering the streets hoping to run into one so you can help? No.
It's the same with slayers, they know the demons are out there, but if it's not the life they choose it's no different then all of us staying home while people are in the streets getting mugged, or there are wars going on. Just becasue it's happening doesn't mean you have to engage it.
With shared power comes less responsibility and more choice.




I can't remember where I thought that from, and can't go looking for a source at the moment. But once again your putting WAY to much stock in the dreams, but has 3 dreams over the course of 7 years, it's not a very power. It's not like Cordys visions that set up the mission, the slayer dreams only give the slayer more insight in their current mission. We've never seen a dream that wasn't directly related to an even happening at that time.


It is completely related to what your talking about. If you think the scoobies were reckless and forced the power on girls that didn't want it, you have no way to back that up, a case could be easily made to show a scenario were the girls would want it.
Doesn't matter if they knew before or not, if the scoobies gave them the info and then asked them to vote, the example still stands.


Course it is, but for the ones that choose not to use it, what's the big deal? Like I said demons dont seek them out if they aren't fighting, the dreams only seem to happen if the slayer is directly related to something. the girl has increased strength and speed, but it's not like a comical strength, were when she opens a car door she accidentally rips the door off.



It wasn't, but your completely ignoring the fact that they went and found all 1800 girls activated, so it's moot.





Nope, absolutely nothing about Angel. The other person didn't have to be a vampire, it needed a ying to her yang and the universe saw Angel as that. But it was nothing to do with Angel, or his being a vampire, or his soul. It was just that the universe saw him as her counterpart.
Which kinda makes sense based on what happened, they were both given brand new powers, making their previous slayerness and vampireness irrelevant, it equalled them to being the same, had Angel been a human the same thing would have happened, he wouldn't have needed the vampire strength.
Twilight just needed the other person to be the person Buffy loved, to hook her in, someone she loved, so it would lead them to having sex and giving birth to Twilight. Love was connection to Angel, not him being a vampire with a soul.





But the activation spell wasn't an automatic activation of Twilight, it didn't have to be this moment, it could have been any number of things. Buffy happened to have friends, unlike previous slayers, they helped keep her alive and Willow happened to become a witch and was able to do the spell.

Had Buffy not come to sunnydale, Willow died then Buffy died and the slayer line moved on, 50 or 100 slayers later one of them could have done something that Twilight deemed good enough for that slayer to be chosen as the bringer of Twilight.

Nothing in Twilight was fixed, it didn't have to be Buffy, it didn't have to involve Willow, it didn't have to be Angel and it didn't have to be a slayer activating all the potentials.
Twilight was a test, once Twilight saw a slayer that was good enough to fulfil it's conditions it would pick her.

Prophecy and destiny aren't the same thing for me. The prophecy was Buffy would fight the master, but we know that wasn't correct, if Buffy had decided not to go down to the master that prophecy wouldn't have come true. She wasn't destined to go down there, she chose to go down there and because she did she fulfilled the requirements of that prophecy. Exact same situation with Twilight, she wasn't destined to activate the potentials, she chose to and it fulfils the Twilight prophecy ( a slayer that does something big - which is vague so it can apply to a number of things ). Had she not gone down to the Master or not activated the slayers, another slayer could have done either of those things (or something else big in the case of Twilight) as it just had to be a slayer not necessarily Buffy.

Does Angel being a vampire not illustrate that he is the ying to her yang though?

I mention the activation spell, not because it was a big event, but because it was my understanding that Buffy absorbed the powers of slayers that died, and that's how she became super, or have I misread/understood that part. As I said, I have read the comics, but only once, so I don't have a particularly intimate knowledge of their details.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Does Angel being a vampire not illustrate that he is the ying to her yang though?

Nothing in the prophecy was about his vampireism though, it only needed someone it saw as her soulmate, and from the foundation of their attraction, it grows something inside both of them that makes them have sex. Being a vampire might have been part of it, but the prophecy didn't call for the other person to be a Vampire, or a vampire with a soul. Ying to her yang, could just be it needed a man and a women, the whole point of Twilight was for the two people to have sex, being a vampire had nothing to do with it.

I mention the activation spell, not because it was a big event, but because it was my understanding that Buffy absorbed the powers of slayers that died, and that's how she became super, or have I misread/understood that part. As I said, I have read the comics, but only once, so I don't have a particularly intimate knowledge of their details.

No, thats Willows initial theory, but it's later revealed the powers are a "gift" from Twilight, nothing to do with the dead slayers at all.